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I actually like blocklist/passlist its far more descriptive. Personally I'd like master/apprentice to be more popular. but all of this is pointless if we don

I actually like blocklist/passlist its far more descriptive. Personally I'd like master/apprentice to be more popular. but all of this is pointless if we don't actually remove some barriers to entry for IT. I doubt people are put off by the use of master/slave, Its the barrage of abuse one gets for being different[1]. [1]no this isn't from most people, but the minority is vocal and toxic, and the majority don't really do enough to keep a lid on the tedious pricks who insist on making IT creepy for anyone who isn't a young bloke.

hiccuphippo 6y ago
I wonder where does that leave derivate words like greylisting (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting).
- NateEag 6y ago
  Watchlist? Suspectlist? Not sure I like either of those options, just the first things that came to mind. I think I'm in favor of changing these terms, because the proposed replacements are clearer about what happens with the list's contents, and the original phrases are rooted in some analogies that are definitely problematic. No, they don't really have those meanings any more, but changing them sends a signal to the people who could be hurt or offended by the terms that we want them to be welcome.
  - zeeZ 6y ago
    If b-word is no and white is yes, then something like "maybelist" or "perhapslist".
_hl_ 6y ago
Can you share some examples of what you believe to be toxic or exclusive behaviour? Personally (as a young bloke) I find IT to be extremely inclusive for those who want to learn, there's so much freely available information and material on the internet it's literally unbelievable. That's how a lot of us young blokes got into this space, and I don't see why minorities would be less likely to go down that path as well (although empirically minorities and women obviously are less likely to do so because they are massively underrepresented).
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  My women friends constantly get creepy messages in a professional setting. I was staggered when I was shown the abuse they would get after a tech talk. Half of it was "u r cute :D" the rest was "you don't know what you are talking about because obscure hair splitting point x" For example I gave a talk where I was critical about the networking schemes of kubernetes. Had I been a woman I would have had a barrage of hostile questions. I know because my more experienced female co-worker raised the same points in her talk. Another example is that person who did the visualisation for the black hole. She was abused simply for being a young woman. Those little shits who combed through the git repor to work out exactly which line she had touched. _Its just not healthy_ It wasn't until I worked at a place where the gender ratios were almost 50:50 that I saw the problems up close. _Every_ woman has a story where they were creeped on in the most toecurling way. These were people who'd only been in the industry for less than two years. I have a daughter, and I want her to follow in my foot steps, but I don't want her to deal with the horrid shit the small but very vocal minority shart out.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > "you don't know what you are talking about because obscure hair splitting point x" I'm a man and have been told that countless times. Are you sure it is a sex-specific issue? Some people just need to gatekeep their precious fields and feel attacked when a newcomer works on them. I would not go as far as calling that "abuse", I even find it mildly amusing when I'm on the receiving end of ridiculous critique. > I have a daughter, and I want her to follow in my foot steps, but I don't want her to deal with the horrid shit the small but very vocal minority shart out. I also have a daughter and a son, and I'm trying to teach both of them that the world is a horrible, hostile place, and that they are out to have an epic fight for survival. Petty creepers will be the least of their problems. There's also a few beautiful things in the world, and I'm also teaching them to appreciate them when these are found, but never to expect or somehow think that they are entitled to them.
pbhjpbhj 6y ago
Master and slave [in humans] aren't tied to any identity, race, nationality. Most modern slavery (that I've heard of) seems to be same-nationality. How is apprentice a good analogy, the slave computing system is directed what to do, or works for the master; it's not training to be a master. No-one is black nor white: anyone who thinks colour-named lists relates to skin colour is a moron. Presumably such people think night-time is racist.
- XorNot 6y ago
  People are rescued from slavery all the time. Bring mindful of casually using a term which they know to describe their years to decades of abuse and torture doesn't seem like a particularly difficult ask.
  - blub 6y ago
    They're probably not rescued by those renaming branches though. Those people have more important things to do. I can see the upside though: after the former slaves have been rescued from their "decades of abuse" which they lost an immense chunk of their life to and almost certainly left them mentally and physically scarred for the rest of their life, they'll take solace in the fact that some people somewhere on Earth have renamed their virtual thingamabobs. Then they will finally know peace.
    - Huggernaut 6y ago
      > Then they will finally know peace. No one's claiming that.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - curiousgal 6y ago
    The word Abd in Arabic means slave/servant [0], so should we ask anyone named Abdullah (God's slave) to change their name because it has the word slave in it? It's not about using a word casually, it's about using it in an irrelevant context. 0.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_(Arabic) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_(Arabic)
raspyberr 6y ago
The reason I don't think that it's "far more descriptive" is because we had a pair of words that meant exactly what they meant. You can't get more descriptive that what they meant. And if you say the actual words have in them the description, I don't think that's relevant because most words aren't like that unless you account for etymology but you don't do you.
helixhelix 6y ago
If people get swayed away from an entire profession because of a few words, how can they have the mental capacity for constructive criticism? For being told directly that their work is sub-par and they need to improve? And how do they have the capacity to do their job if they are constantly annoyed by a few words?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > If people get swayed away from an entire profession because of a few words, how can they have the mental capacity for constructive criticism? First, you probably mean emotional capacity. Second, very easily, especially if they have other lucrative and rewarding alternatives, which people with the mental capacity for software development probably do. Having the capacity to deal with necessary unpleasantness to improve one’s quality of work doesn’t imply the lack of self-respect necessary to voluntary put up with completely unnecessary unpleasantness just to work in one of the very many fields one has the facilities to successfully perform in. But thanks for bringing out the classic hazing defense.
  - helixhelix 6y ago
    What lucrative alternatives? Is there another Linux kernel I'm not aware of? Another Google? If you can't sit down and do a good job instead of having inequality living rent-free in your head [1], who would prefer you over someone who can? Remember, there's a reason these people are a minority. Companies turn down applicants all the time so this special case isn't that influential. [1] The girl who started the cancel movement of Dr. Stallman was admittedly too frustrated to do her job.
    - KaiserPro 6y ago
      > Remember, there's a reason these people are a minority. Companies turn down applicants all the time so this special case isn't that influential. such a wholistic view. My female colleagues would love to sit down and do a good job, but they have to put up with men stalking them because they had the brass bollocks to give a speech at a conference without possession of a penis

hiccuphippo 6y ago

I wonder where does that leave derivate words like greylisting (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting).

NateEag 6y ago
Watchlist? Suspectlist? Not sure I like either of those options, just the first things that came to mind. I think I'm in favor of changing these terms, because the proposed replacements are clearer about what happens with the list's contents, and the original phrases are rooted in some analogies that are definitely problematic. No, they don't really have those meanings any more, but changing them sends a signal to the people who could be hurt or offended by the terms that we want them to be welcome.
- zeeZ 6y ago
  If b-word is no and white is yes, then something like "maybelist" or "perhapslist".

_hl_ 6y ago

Can you share some examples of what you believe to be toxic or exclusive behaviour? Personally (as a young bloke) I find IT to be extremely inclusive for those who want to learn, there's so much freely available information and material on the internet it's literally unbelievable. That's how a lot of us young blokes got into this space, and I don't see why minorities would be less likely to go down that path as well (although empirically minorities and women obviously are less likely to do so because they are massively underrepresented).

KaiserPro 6y ago
My women friends constantly get creepy messages in a professional setting. I was staggered when I was shown the abuse they would get after a tech talk. Half of it was "u r cute :D" the rest was "you don't know what you are talking about because obscure hair splitting point x" For example I gave a talk where I was critical about the networking schemes of kubernetes. Had I been a woman I would have had a barrage of hostile questions. I know because my more experienced female co-worker raised the same points in her talk. Another example is that person who did the visualisation for the black hole. She was abused simply for being a young woman. Those little shits who combed through the git repor to work out exactly which line she had touched. _Its just not healthy_ It wasn't until I worked at a place where the gender ratios were almost 50:50 that I saw the problems up close. _Every_ woman has a story where they were creeped on in the most toecurling way. These were people who'd only been in the industry for less than two years. I have a daughter, and I want her to follow in my foot steps, but I don't want her to deal with the horrid shit the small but very vocal minority shart out.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > "you don't know what you are talking about because obscure hair splitting point x" I'm a man and have been told that countless times. Are you sure it is a sex-specific issue? Some people just need to gatekeep their precious fields and feel attacked when a newcomer works on them. I would not go as far as calling that "abuse", I even find it mildly amusing when I'm on the receiving end of ridiculous critique. > I have a daughter, and I want her to follow in my foot steps, but I don't want her to deal with the horrid shit the small but very vocal minority shart out. I also have a daughter and a son, and I'm trying to teach both of them that the world is a horrible, hostile place, and that they are out to have an epic fight for survival. Petty creepers will be the least of their problems. There's also a few beautiful things in the world, and I'm also teaching them to appreciate them when these are found, but never to expect or somehow think that they are entitled to them.

pbhjpbhj 6y ago

Master and slave [in humans] aren't tied to any identity, race, nationality. Most modern slavery (that I've heard of) seems to be same-nationality. How is apprentice a good analogy, the slave computing system is directed what to do, or works for the master; it's not training to be a master. No-one is black nor white: anyone who thinks colour-named lists relates to skin colour is a moron. Presumably such people think night-time is racist.

XorNot 6y ago
People are rescued from slavery all the time. Bring mindful of casually using a term which they know to describe their years to decades of abuse and torture doesn't seem like a particularly difficult ask.
- blub 6y ago
  They're probably not rescued by those renaming branches though. Those people have more important things to do. I can see the upside though: after the former slaves have been rescued from their "decades of abuse" which they lost an immense chunk of their life to and almost certainly left them mentally and physically scarred for the rest of their life, they'll take solace in the fact that some people somewhere on Earth have renamed their virtual thingamabobs. Then they will finally know peace.
  - Huggernaut 6y ago
    > Then they will finally know peace. No one's claiming that.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- curiousgal 6y ago
  The word Abd in Arabic means slave/servant [0], so should we ask anyone named Abdullah (God's slave) to change their name because it has the word slave in it? It's not about using a word casually, it's about using it in an irrelevant context. 0.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_(Arabic) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_(Arabic)

raspyberr 6y ago

The reason I don't think that it's "far more descriptive" is because we had a pair of words that meant exactly what they meant. You can't get more descriptive that what they meant. And if you say the actual words have in them the description, I don't think that's relevant because most words aren't like that unless you account for etymology but you don't do you.

helixhelix 6y ago

If people get swayed away from an entire profession because of a few words, how can they have the mental capacity for constructive criticism? For being told directly that their work is sub-par and they need to improve? And how do they have the capacity to do their job if they are constantly annoyed by a few words?

dragonwriter 6y ago
> If people get swayed away from an entire profession because of a few words, how can they have the mental capacity for constructive criticism? First, you probably mean emotional capacity. Second, very easily, especially if they have other lucrative and rewarding alternatives, which people with the mental capacity for software development probably do. Having the capacity to deal with necessary unpleasantness to improve one’s quality of work doesn’t imply the lack of self-respect necessary to voluntary put up with completely unnecessary unpleasantness just to work in one of the very many fields one has the facilities to successfully perform in. But thanks for bringing out the classic hazing defense.
- helixhelix 6y ago
  What lucrative alternatives? Is there another Linux kernel I'm not aware of? Another Google? If you can't sit down and do a good job instead of having inequality living rent-free in your head [1], who would prefer you over someone who can? Remember, there's a reason these people are a minority. Companies turn down applicants all the time so this special case isn't that influential. [1] The girl who started the cancel movement of Dr. Stallman was admittedly too frustrated to do her job.
  - KaiserPro 6y ago
    > Remember, there's a reason these people are a minority. Companies turn down applicants all the time so this special case isn't that influential. such a wholistic view. My female colleagues would love to sit down and do a good job, but they have to put up with men stalking them because they had the brass bollocks to give a speech at a conference without possession of a penis