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Who is this 'we' you reference? Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible for crimes committed on Native Americans before t

Who is this 'we' you reference? Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible for crimes committed on Native Americans before they or their ancestors/families arrived in a recognized (at the time of arrival) Sovereign Country. Would be interested in your justification for holding citizens of today's US responsible for an event that happened more than 100 years ago, before they lived or breathed.

jake_morrison 6y ago
Those who benefit from the the current situation are responsible.
- sam36 6y ago
  What is the "current situation" and what is the "benefit"?
  - Klinky 6y ago
    Half of Oklahoma has no value or benefit?
Klinky 6y ago
"We", as in, "the country". It's part of the history and foundation of the country you agreed to become a citizen of. The nation of today is not isolated from it's past. Much benefit was gained from injustices of the past. What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? What kind of values are those?
- sam36 6y ago
  >What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? That has stuck with me and I've been thinking. But I think I got an idea. Maybe we should educate our young about the past, where we came from (fled state sponsored religious persecution to a land that was free). We could also teach about the mistakes that were made, you know, like how we purchased conquered and displaced refugees from muslim warlords and then tried to treat these people as some kind of property. Maybe even go over the past processes and laws that were used to free these people and become an even better society. Maybe even go further, like make/erect some statues of some of the past heroes that actually purchased some of these conquered people but then saw the light and worked towards freedom for all using the Bible as proof that God made only one kind of "mankind" and no one set is superior to another. Maybe even erect some statues of some of these conquered people to show that we are not ashamed of seeing them as people and not property. Basically just kind of educate people so they don't grow up questioning the most basic tenets of their own nation and history? Oh wait...
  - Klinky 6y ago
    How does this solve a legal land dispute that has been going on for generations? "We'll mention you in childrens' text books" doesn't do justice.
    - sam36 6y ago
      It doesn't, but I was referring to your more broader statement of "The nation of today is not isolated from it's past." Given the current climate of the last two months, it just reeks of dogma.
      - Klinky 6y ago
        Are you complaining about dogma while referring to the Bible as a source of truth in your previous post?
        sam36 6y ago
        Seems like you saw the word "Bible" and immediately typed your response... Nonetheless, the bible has been used to promote many ideas through the ages. Regardless of what Obama said years ago ("we are not a Christian nation, but a nation of citizens"), America was/is a Christian nation. The Bible and Christian faith were used in many areas to form the constitution, laws, and even our republic (based on the original notion of "judges" set before Israel in the old testament). Of course none of this is taught in schools anymore (at least I had never heard of it until researching in my adulthood), which is the problem I make a point of.
        Klinky 6y ago
        The accuracy of the Bible and its influence on the US is its own can of worms. It was heavily referenced both for and against slavery, and was certainly not convincing enough proof "that God made only one kind of "mankind" and no one set is superior to another.", to prevent genocide and the subjugation of people of color for centuries. Edit: I see you don't consider the Native American genocide to be actual genocide, so I am going to conclude you're just ignorant of Native American history. It seems you have a very coddled view of American history.
- ricardo81 6y ago
  >sweep it under the carpet As a European (Scot) who lived in Canada with my partner (Ojibwe) it became obvious how ignorant I was of the past wrt all Native American tribes and the indoctrination they were subjected to. I'd mentioned to her that during this BLM movement that the African-American story is seemingly world-known but the Native American story less so. I believe their time will come when there is a greater understanding. Not an expert but my time living on the reserve but it seemed apparent that their society was still experiencing culture shock.
  - sequoia 6y ago
    Sometimes referred to as “transgenerational trauma.” It’s something Jews and Native Americans/First Nations people have in common, probably along with most populations who suffered genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma
    - ricardo81 6y ago
      Yes. My partner worked in a women's shelter and told me about the 'learned behaviour' that was perhaps the root cause in so many situations. Her grandmother had managed to hide and avoid being taken to one of the Catholic schools when they came into their family home to take her, her grandfather didn't manage it. Easy to see how that kind of trauma in a family could affect the next generations, particularly so if their was abuse - which apparently was rife in the schools they were sent to.
  - dghughes 6y ago
    A large part of the stress came from residential schools. Children were taken from their parents to be "raised right" by the government. There is a big debate here in Canada about Canada's founding father John A MacDonald because he approved residential schools. It would be like a debate over George Washington in the US should he be on money, statues erected and so on. Another topic is missing women in indigenous communities. Often murdered by a partner or stranger or simply gone missing without any known reason. It's interesting to see how little talk there is in the US over rights of First Nations (or "Native American") people. It's a daily discussion here in Canada going on for years.
jacobolus 6y ago
> Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible [...] Yes, the whole point of being citizens is taking responsibility collectively as a populace for the actions of the state. We collectively owe interest on the national debt. We still must abide by international treaties signed and ratified by long-dead representatives. We follow a constitution written long ago, and if we want to change it we follow its prescribed process. We pay taxes. We serve on juries. Those of us eligible agree we can be drafted into military service if necessary. And so on.
- oxAAAFFB 6y ago
  It’s one thing to be obligated to follow the law of the country. But it’s another to be assigned moral guilt for things you have no involvement in.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - japhyr 6y ago
    You don't need to be "assigned moral guilt" to recognize atrocities from the past, their influence on the present state, and reparations that should be made.
    - darawk 6y ago
      It's kind of an interesting moral question though. Should immigrants have to pay reparations for the crimes of a state that neither they nor their ancestors were a part of? If we accept that the entity of the United States is responsible for these crimes and owes reparations...is it fair to use fungible tax dollars paid partially by immigrants to pay those reparations? I don't know. Interesting puzzle to think about though.
      - 6y ago
Fauntleroy 6y ago
Legally they are responsible because they are citizens of the country, and it is their government that made the promise. This is extremely simple.
riquito 6y ago
> Would be interested in your justification for holding citizens of today's US responsible for an event that happened more than 100 years ago, before they lived or breathed. Of course they are responsible, who else should be if not the one who are getting the historical benefits? Do you use "we" in your country only to refer to the good parts of your history, or up to the day you set foot on it? Do you think countries' debt should be cancelled every 50 year or so?
- gwright 6y ago
  > Of course they are responsible, who else should be if not the one who are getting the historical benefits? This idea of generational responsibility, taken to its full extent, might have some unintended consequences. For example, aren't there historical records that indicate that the at least some Native American tribes themselves fought over territory? How should those claims be adjudicated? How does this logic work for Dreamers(DACA beneficiaries)? Should a child who benefits from their parent's illegal activities be punished years later? Should the grand-children be punished? great-grandchildren? The Supreme Court even ruled recently that DACA was illegally established. BTW, this is another good example where Congress should have passed legislation rather then letting the situation live in legal limbo.
  - sjy 6y ago
    The argument for reparations is not about punishment for past crimes. It is about remediating inequity that still exists today as a result of those crimes.
    - gwright 6y ago
      But presumably the reparations have to be paid from one group to another group. And perhaps there is a third group that pays nothing and gets nothing (recent immigrants?). So if you are in the group that has to pay out the reparations aren't you being punished for the actions of your ancestors? As complicated as these considerations are, I still wonder about the unintended side effects if there were indeed some sort of substantial transfer of wealth from some subset of Americans to descendants of slaves. Wouldn't that create a terribly animosity between those groups and what if that transfer of wealth didn't actually resolve the disparities? What if 10 years later the metrics used to measure those disparities indicated that they still existed? More reparations? It isn't clear to me that wealth transfer can actually remedy many of the disparities that are observed. I think it is quite a bit more complex than that.
ivalm 6y ago
We the American people who are bound by the legal treaties our American government entered into. The same American government that existed for the past 200+ years and currently represents myself and all other Americans.

jake_morrison 6y ago

Those who benefit from the the current situation are responsible.

sam36 6y ago
What is the "current situation" and what is the "benefit"?
- Klinky 6y ago
  Half of Oklahoma has no value or benefit?

Klinky 6y ago

"We", as in, "the country". It's part of the history and foundation of the country you agreed to become a citizen of. The nation of today is not isolated from it's past. Much benefit was gained from injustices of the past. What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? What kind of values are those?

sam36 6y ago
>What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? That has stuck with me and I've been thinking. But I think I got an idea. Maybe we should educate our young about the past, where we came from (fled state sponsored religious persecution to a land that was free). We could also teach about the mistakes that were made, you know, like how we purchased conquered and displaced refugees from muslim warlords and then tried to treat these people as some kind of property. Maybe even go over the past processes and laws that were used to free these people and become an even better society. Maybe even go further, like make/erect some statues of some of the past heroes that actually purchased some of these conquered people but then saw the light and worked towards freedom for all using the Bible as proof that God made only one kind of "mankind" and no one set is superior to another. Maybe even erect some statues of some of these conquered people to show that we are not ashamed of seeing them as people and not property. Basically just kind of educate people so they don't grow up questioning the most basic tenets of their own nation and history? Oh wait...
- Klinky 6y ago
  How does this solve a legal land dispute that has been going on for generations? "We'll mention you in childrens' text books" doesn't do justice.
  - sam36 6y ago
    It doesn't, but I was referring to your more broader statement of "The nation of today is not isolated from it's past." Given the current climate of the last two months, it just reeks of dogma.
    - Klinky 6y ago
      Are you complaining about dogma while referring to the Bible as a source of truth in your previous post?
      - sam36 6y ago
        Seems like you saw the word "Bible" and immediately typed your response... Nonetheless, the bible has been used to promote many ideas through the ages. Regardless of what Obama said years ago ("we are not a Christian nation, but a nation of citizens"), America was/is a Christian nation. The Bible and Christian faith were used in many areas to form the constitution, laws, and even our republic (based on the original notion of "judges" set before Israel in the old testament). Of course none of this is taught in schools anymore (at least I had never heard of it until researching in my adulthood), which is the problem I make a point of.
        Klinky 6y ago
        The accuracy of the Bible and its influence on the US is its own can of worms. It was heavily referenced both for and against slavery, and was certainly not convincing enough proof "that God made only one kind of "mankind" and no one set is superior to another.", to prevent genocide and the subjugation of people of color for centuries. Edit: I see you don't consider the Native American genocide to be actual genocide, so I am going to conclude you're just ignorant of Native American history. It seems you have a very coddled view of American history.
ricardo81 6y ago
>sweep it under the carpet As a European (Scot) who lived in Canada with my partner (Ojibwe) it became obvious how ignorant I was of the past wrt all Native American tribes and the indoctrination they were subjected to. I'd mentioned to her that during this BLM movement that the African-American story is seemingly world-known but the Native American story less so. I believe their time will come when there is a greater understanding. Not an expert but my time living on the reserve but it seemed apparent that their society was still experiencing culture shock.
- sequoia 6y ago
  Sometimes referred to as “transgenerational trauma.” It’s something Jews and Native Americans/First Nations people have in common, probably along with most populations who suffered genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma
  - ricardo81 6y ago
    Yes. My partner worked in a women's shelter and told me about the 'learned behaviour' that was perhaps the root cause in so many situations. Her grandmother had managed to hide and avoid being taken to one of the Catholic schools when they came into their family home to take her, her grandfather didn't manage it. Easy to see how that kind of trauma in a family could affect the next generations, particularly so if their was abuse - which apparently was rife in the schools they were sent to.
- dghughes 6y ago
  A large part of the stress came from residential schools. Children were taken from their parents to be "raised right" by the government. There is a big debate here in Canada about Canada's founding father John A MacDonald because he approved residential schools. It would be like a debate over George Washington in the US should he be on money, statues erected and so on. Another topic is missing women in indigenous communities. Often murdered by a partner or stranger or simply gone missing without any known reason. It's interesting to see how little talk there is in the US over rights of First Nations (or "Native American") people. It's a daily discussion here in Canada going on for years.

jacobolus 6y ago

> Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible [...] Yes, the whole point of being citizens is taking responsibility collectively as a populace for the actions of the state. We collectively owe interest on the national debt. We still must abide by international treaties signed and ratified by long-dead representatives. We follow a constitution written long ago, and if we want to change it we follow its prescribed process. We pay taxes. We serve on juries. Those of us eligible agree we can be drafted into military service if necessary. And so on.

oxAAAFFB 6y ago
It’s one thing to be obligated to follow the law of the country. But it’s another to be assigned moral guilt for things you have no involvement in.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- japhyr 6y ago
  You don't need to be "assigned moral guilt" to recognize atrocities from the past, their influence on the present state, and reparations that should be made.
  - darawk 6y ago
    It's kind of an interesting moral question though. Should immigrants have to pay reparations for the crimes of a state that neither they nor their ancestors were a part of? If we accept that the entity of the United States is responsible for these crimes and owes reparations...is it fair to use fungible tax dollars paid partially by immigrants to pay those reparations? I don't know. Interesting puzzle to think about though.
    - 6y ago

Fauntleroy 6y ago

Legally they are responsible because they are citizens of the country, and it is their government that made the promise. This is extremely simple.

riquito 6y ago

> Would be interested in your justification for holding citizens of today's US responsible for an event that happened more than 100 years ago, before they lived or breathed. Of course they are responsible, who else should be if not the one who are getting the historical benefits? Do you use "we" in your country only to refer to the good parts of your history, or up to the day you set foot on it? Do you think countries' debt should be cancelled every 50 year or so?

gwright 6y ago
> Of course they are responsible, who else should be if not the one who are getting the historical benefits? This idea of generational responsibility, taken to its full extent, might have some unintended consequences. For example, aren't there historical records that indicate that the at least some Native American tribes themselves fought over territory? How should those claims be adjudicated? How does this logic work for Dreamers(DACA beneficiaries)? Should a child who benefits from their parent's illegal activities be punished years later? Should the grand-children be punished? great-grandchildren? The Supreme Court even ruled recently that DACA was illegally established. BTW, this is another good example where Congress should have passed legislation rather then letting the situation live in legal limbo.
- sjy 6y ago
  The argument for reparations is not about punishment for past crimes. It is about remediating inequity that still exists today as a result of those crimes.
  - gwright 6y ago
    But presumably the reparations have to be paid from one group to another group. And perhaps there is a third group that pays nothing and gets nothing (recent immigrants?). So if you are in the group that has to pay out the reparations aren't you being punished for the actions of your ancestors? As complicated as these considerations are, I still wonder about the unintended side effects if there were indeed some sort of substantial transfer of wealth from some subset of Americans to descendants of slaves. Wouldn't that create a terribly animosity between those groups and what if that transfer of wealth didn't actually resolve the disparities? What if 10 years later the metrics used to measure those disparities indicated that they still existed? More reparations? It isn't clear to me that wealth transfer can actually remedy many of the disparities that are observed. I think it is quite a bit more complex than that.

ivalm 6y ago

We the American people who are bound by the legal treaties our American government entered into. The same American government that existed for the past 200+ years and currently represents myself and all other Americans.