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At least 17 people were murdered during this time and a few more since this was posted: https://www.thepostemail.com/2020/06/03/twitter-user-compiles-list-of-v

by Natsu 6y ago

At least 17 people were murdered during this time and a few more since this was posted: https://www.thepostemail.com/2020/06/03/twitter-user-compiles-list-of-victims-of-recent-riots/ https://www.thepostemail.com/2020/06/03/twitter-user-compile... The posts are public and the police cannot go after anyone for simply engaging in protected speech, but they can and have identified looters and murderers who have tried to discredit the fact that black lives matter with their actions. So I'm not clear why so many people are against the police catching the violent criminals who undermine the message of the many peaceful protesters.

thekid314 6y ago
In Boston I was standing beside the police as the let looting occur. There were only about 5 shops broken into and only 1 that I saw looted, but the police were standing 10 feet away from one and didn't do anything about it.
- toofy 6y ago
  I’ve seen many videos of the same types of behaviors. My suspicion is things like this are intentional. Police are incredibly aware of how things are framed in media reports and they’re very aware of how little the media questions their actions–though I suspect, from their own actions repeatedly caught in video, this benefit of the doubt they've been afforded may be slipping away.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    I genuinely believe that they let the looting happen either to punish the citizens who dared question them, or in the hopes that we’d focus on the looting and not the cops beating citizens down.
- musu98 6y ago
  Only 5 shops? Jeez. What did you expect the police to do? Stop the mobs while the looting happens? With anti police sentiment so high here, it would be a thousand times higher on the street. I'm not sure stopping the looting there and then would be a good idea.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    > What did you expect the police to do? Stop the mobs while the looting happens? Isn't that their job?
- unishark 6y ago
  In other big cities, cops are kept on a very tight leash during protests and need permission from leadership to intervene.
- dfxm12 6y ago
  In some areas, the cops are in league with the violent counter-protesters, which is why they watch them assault law-abiding people and do nothing about it: ...dozens of police looked on, in some cases chatting and sharing pizza with the group. They included Officer Joseph Goodwin Jr., whose brother Richie shoved one protester and was photographed punching another. [0] Maybe it's the same thing with the looters. 0 - https://www.inquirer.com/news/fishtown-philadelphia-community-meeting-zoom-protesters-vigilantes-police-20200630.html https://www.inquirer.com/news/fishtown-philadelphia-communit...
newen 6y ago
It’s things like this [1]. Doesn’t matter if it’s cops who really did it. People would like for the cops to not have a list of anti-police protestors. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-ferguson-activist-deaths-black-lives-matter-20190317-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-ferguson-acti...
squeaky-clean 6y ago
> The posts are public and the police cannot go after anyone for simply engaging in protected speech, "police SHOULD NOT go after anyone for simply engaging in protected speech". FTFY They can do lots of things they should not. They should not run cars into protesters. They should not push over old men who are not causing trouble. They should not shoot unarmed people in the back who are running away. They should not kill a black man by choking him to death with their knee over a false counterfeit bill complaint. And yet all these things happen. The police should not go after innocent protesters, but there's no way in hell I will believe that they will not, or are not doing so.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  > They should not kill a black man ... over a false counterfeit bill complaint. They shouldn’t kill even for legitimate counterfeit bill complaints. Police should use the absolute minimum force required to both apprehend suspects (as limited by relevant law) and is required by public safety; not one ounce more. If someone is accused of committing a crime, it’s up to the courts and the jury to determine if they’re guilty and what the punishment shall me, the police don’t get to play judge, jury, and executioner.
  - mlang23 6y ago
    Good summary. Reminds me that I am very thankful to $deity that I am not an U.S. citizen.
  - sitkack 6y ago
    Very much related to your last statement. Why Some Cops Think They're The Punisher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM7z7pDmEC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM7z7pDmEC4
slg 6y ago
I hadn't heard of that website, but this is how the author of that article describes herself: >Sharon Rondeau has operated The Post & Email since April 2010, focusing on the Obama birth certificate investigation... Linking to a website like that is going to destroy whatever point you were trying to make for a large portion of your audience.
- Natsu 6y ago
  It links to primary sources on everything, so this seems to me more a distraction than a meaningful critique. The fact that this is all easily verifiable, yet hard to find compilations of, is a critique in the other direction.
  - slg 6y ago
    I wasn't debating the facts of your argument. I was simply telling you that the debate is already lost as soon as you link to a site that still claims Obama wasn't born in the US. In many people's minds, it isn't worth the energy to dispute your point because you are already displaying symptoms of someone who lacks the critical thinking skills necessary to assess and process basic facts. If the only important pieces of that article are the links to primary sources, you could have linked to them yourself. That has potential to make you sound like a conspiracy theorist tying photos on your wall together with red yarn. However that is still better than linking to a conspiracy theorist website that seemingly proves the same point.
    - Natsu 6y ago
      I wasn't trying to direct that at you, personally and I do understand what you're saying. This instinct to discredit the source is literally what's killing the news right now. People gladly swallow outrage porn, but when they see a fact compilation, their first instinct is to evaluate the one who compiled it (who is irrelevant to said facts) instead of engaging with the facts themselves. Even to the point of missing that it's an honest compilation and includes those killed by police during the protests. But he's the biased one here, right? Besides, that's a silly shibboleth all told. I voted for Obama and I wouldn't have cared even if he was born in Kenya (he wasn't). McCain was born in Panama and I didn't care about that, either.
toofy 6y ago
> So I'm not clear why so many people are against the police catching the violent criminals Because someone can be against physical violence and simultaneously think surveilling everyone is wrong.
tharne 6y ago
> So I'm not clear why so many people are against the police catching the violent criminals who undermine the message of the many peaceful protesters. It's because human beings are tribal by nature and tend to take social queues from those around them. SV and most major metro areas are overwhelming liberal, and right now it's trendy in those circles to issue blanket condemnations of all police activity with little regard for nuance. In a lot of ways it's very similar to George W. Bush and co.'s "You with us or against us" mentally shortly after 9/11. Then, like now, any nuance or pointing out of grey areas were seen as a form of disloyalty and siding with the enemy, despite the matter itself being very complex, and yes, nuanced.

by Natsu 6y ago

thekid314 6y ago

In Boston I was standing beside the police as the let looting occur. There were only about 5 shops broken into and only 1 that I saw looted, but the police were standing 10 feet away from one and didn't do anything about it.

toofy 6y ago
I’ve seen many videos of the same types of behaviors. My suspicion is things like this are intentional. Police are incredibly aware of how things are framed in media reports and they’re very aware of how little the media questions their actions–though I suspect, from their own actions repeatedly caught in video, this benefit of the doubt they've been afforded may be slipping away.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I genuinely believe that they let the looting happen either to punish the citizens who dared question them, or in the hopes that we’d focus on the looting and not the cops beating citizens down.
musu98 6y ago
Only 5 shops? Jeez. What did you expect the police to do? Stop the mobs while the looting happens? With anti police sentiment so high here, it would be a thousand times higher on the street. I'm not sure stopping the looting there and then would be a good idea.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > What did you expect the police to do? Stop the mobs while the looting happens? Isn't that their job?
unishark 6y ago
In other big cities, cops are kept on a very tight leash during protests and need permission from leadership to intervene.
dfxm12 6y ago
In some areas, the cops are in league with the violent counter-protesters, which is why they watch them assault law-abiding people and do nothing about it: ...dozens of police looked on, in some cases chatting and sharing pizza with the group. They included Officer Joseph Goodwin Jr., whose brother Richie shoved one protester and was photographed punching another. [0] Maybe it's the same thing with the looters. 0 - https://www.inquirer.com/news/fishtown-philadelphia-community-meeting-zoom-protesters-vigilantes-police-20200630.html https://www.inquirer.com/news/fishtown-philadelphia-communit...

newen 6y ago

It’s things like this [1]. Doesn’t matter if it’s cops who really did it. People would like for the cops to not have a list of anti-police protestors. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-ferguson-activist-deaths-black-lives-matter-20190317-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-ferguson-acti...

squeaky-clean 6y ago

> The posts are public and the police cannot go after anyone for simply engaging in protected speech, "police SHOULD NOT go after anyone for simply engaging in protected speech". FTFY They can do lots of things they should not. They should not run cars into protesters. They should not push over old men who are not causing trouble. They should not shoot unarmed people in the back who are running away. They should not kill a black man by choking him to death with their knee over a false counterfeit bill complaint. And yet all these things happen. The police should not go after innocent protesters, but there's no way in hell I will believe that they will not, or are not doing so.

ashtonkem 6y ago
> They should not kill a black man ... over a false counterfeit bill complaint. They shouldn’t kill even for legitimate counterfeit bill complaints. Police should use the absolute minimum force required to both apprehend suspects (as limited by relevant law) and is required by public safety; not one ounce more. If someone is accused of committing a crime, it’s up to the courts and the jury to determine if they’re guilty and what the punishment shall me, the police don’t get to play judge, jury, and executioner.
- mlang23 6y ago
  Good summary. Reminds me that I am very thankful to $deity that I am not an U.S. citizen.
- sitkack 6y ago
  Very much related to your last statement. Why Some Cops Think They're The Punisher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM7z7pDmEC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM7z7pDmEC4

slg 6y ago

I hadn't heard of that website, but this is how the author of that article describes herself: >Sharon Rondeau has operated The Post & Email since April 2010, focusing on the Obama birth certificate investigation... Linking to a website like that is going to destroy whatever point you were trying to make for a large portion of your audience.

Natsu 6y ago
It links to primary sources on everything, so this seems to me more a distraction than a meaningful critique. The fact that this is all easily verifiable, yet hard to find compilations of, is a critique in the other direction.
- slg 6y ago
  I wasn't debating the facts of your argument. I was simply telling you that the debate is already lost as soon as you link to a site that still claims Obama wasn't born in the US. In many people's minds, it isn't worth the energy to dispute your point because you are already displaying symptoms of someone who lacks the critical thinking skills necessary to assess and process basic facts. If the only important pieces of that article are the links to primary sources, you could have linked to them yourself. That has potential to make you sound like a conspiracy theorist tying photos on your wall together with red yarn. However that is still better than linking to a conspiracy theorist website that seemingly proves the same point.
  - Natsu 6y ago
    I wasn't trying to direct that at you, personally and I do understand what you're saying. This instinct to discredit the source is literally what's killing the news right now. People gladly swallow outrage porn, but when they see a fact compilation, their first instinct is to evaluate the one who compiled it (who is irrelevant to said facts) instead of engaging with the facts themselves. Even to the point of missing that it's an honest compilation and includes those killed by police during the protests. But he's the biased one here, right? Besides, that's a silly shibboleth all told. I voted for Obama and I wouldn't have cared even if he was born in Kenya (he wasn't). McCain was born in Panama and I didn't care about that, either.

toofy 6y ago

> So I'm not clear why so many people are against the police catching the violent criminals Because someone can be against physical violence and simultaneously think surveilling everyone is wrong.

tharne 6y ago

> So I'm not clear why so many people are against the police catching the violent criminals who undermine the message of the many peaceful protesters. It's because human beings are tribal by nature and tend to take social queues from those around them. SV and most major metro areas are overwhelming liberal, and right now it's trendy in those circles to issue blanket condemnations of all police activity with little regard for nuance. In a lot of ways it's very similar to George W. Bush and co.'s "You with us or against us" mentally shortly after 9/11. Then, like now, any nuance or pointing out of grey areas were seen as a form of disloyalty and siding with the enemy, despite the matter itself being very complex, and yes, nuanced.