4 ms·

Yea but they are also afraid of loosing out on a generation of professors, post docs, academics, value generators, “job creators”. It is very risky to cut out

Yea but they are also afraid of loosing out on a generation of professors, post docs, academics, value generators, “job creators”. It is very risky to cut out a generation of top students because the value is not just to the local Boston economy, but nationally. It’s not just cheap labor. It’s apprenticeship by the smartest in the world who will pay dividends for not only our lives but for generations. I came as a student. I pay 6 figures in taxes. Some of my intl friends pay 7 figures and employ hundreds. I’ll have kids here that will generate enough value to do that as well. Right now, there is a significant risk that a lot of economic value is going to be lost due to these immigration policies. That is not good for america. It’s like a sports team: you have the ability to draft the top players from around the world for cheap. Why would you decide to boycott the draft itself and let the competitors (India, China) take those players? Especially some players that you have already trained (graduated students, post docs)

tomrod 6y ago
We are of a like mind. To answer the "why" folks may think this, you and I are considering the general equilibrium impact of the policy, but the vast majority of folks think in terms of partial equilibrium/first order. And on a first order, the "jobs" that folks holding these student visas will be vacated and thus "available" for domestic students. Such nativist views typically fail to grasp that said jobs may simply not be available due to companies sending work to the talent, not just to the trained. Myopia is a terrible thing to live in denial with, but unfortunately such as things are.
disgruntledphd2 6y ago
Realistically the actual competitors of America here are Canada, the UK and Europe more generally. I suspect that a lot of this immigration is both the desire for high-paying jobs and to live in a (slightly) more stable country.
- Tinyyy 6y ago
  There is a growing number of Chinese students who graduate from top Chinese universities or return to work in China after their US education. The US may hold a dominant position right now, but that lead is fading and the unwelcoming attitude towards immigrants is driving the best and brightest back home. This is especially true in engineering (vs academia where US still has a huge advantage), where there has been an explosion in Chinese tech companies who pay salaries competent to US tech companies when adjusting for CoL. It’s therefore not surprising that in the last decade we saw many rising Chinese companies like TikTok, Xiaomi, Tencent make waves even in American markets. In the next decade, if the US fails to capture the brightest minds of the world, we could see China start to become a viable alternative to the US, especially for tech workers.
  - booboolayla 6y ago
    This way of reasoning is like a Chinese finger trap. We are educating China's new (first?) generation of scientists, so if they stay here they'll somehow work for our benefit and not that of China, and if they go back then it's even worse supposedly. How about we don't educate CCP's scientists at all? Knowledge is power and we are selling it wholesale to CCP.
  - nothal 6y ago
    I can't imagine it being viable for most Western tech workers given the climate of human rights and politics. I am a tech worker, I even have a particular interest in China and know a little Mandarin but I would never live or work there long term given what I know.
    - kyawzazaw 6y ago
      It really doesn’t need western tech workers that much in huge troves. Look at people Alibaba has poached for top AI positions. Also, are you aware of 1000 Talents plan? I suppose you are also aware of Tsinghua and other 8 schools that are super strong? Especially two of them in AI.
  - kaliali 6y ago
    Yeah... I don't see how anyone would strive to go to China considering everything that's been happening and how racist they are to African immigrant workers over there. If you think the US government is acting xenophobic, China is on a whole different level. Video of an Africans being evicted from chinese apartment due to racism https://youtu.be/KQaNdTKQyLY?t=310 https://youtu.be/KQaNdTKQyLY?t=310 https://youtu.be/V3jHADADWc0?t=39 https://youtu.be/V3jHADADWc0?t=39 Racist incidents against Africans in China amid coronavirus crackdown spark outcry https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-racism-africans-china/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-racism-africans-chi... Africans told to leave homes as Chinese regime blames foreigners for bringing CCP virus to China https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvN4WHBhnoo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvN4WHBhnoo
    - hef19898 6y ago
gruez 6y ago
>It’s like a sports team: you have the ability to draft the top players from around the world for cheap. Why would you decide to boycott the draft itself and let the competitors (India, China) take those players? Especially some players that you have already trained (graduated students, post docs) You're thinking about it from the wrong perspective. The people who are anti-immigration are anti-immigration because they personally might be negatively impacted (in terms of losing jobs or getting lower wages), even if it means the country as a whole is better off. Seeing the US GDP grow 30% faster is little consolation to you when you've lost your job to immigrants (or at least, you thought that you did). Going back to the sports team analogy, it'd be great if your team drafted the best international players and won, but what if that resulted in you getting kicked off the team, or sidelined most of the season?
- vowelless 6y ago
  If that’s the case, then why not have teams draft from the region they represent? For example, maybe the Patriots should not have had a foreign Michigander as their QB for 20 years, that spot could have been given to some up and coming Boston College graduate. To address your point a bit more directly: can you show me studies where native born Americans have lost jobs to immigrants in the US? I know that many jobs got moved to China and Mexico, but that’s not what I am wondering about.
  - gruez 6y ago
    > If that’s the case, then why not have teams draft from the region they represent? For example, maybe the Patriots should not have had a foreign Michigander as their QB for 20 years, that spot could have been given to some up and coming Boston College graduate. In the sports analogy, I'm describing it from the point of a player, not a fan. A fan's role in this is closer to shareholder rather than employee. They primarily care about winning (presumably). Ultimately the team is beholden to their fans, not to their players. >To address your point a bit more directly: can you show me studies where native born Americans have lost jobs to immigrants in the US? I know that many jobs got moved to China and Mexico, but that’s not what I am wondering about. That's not my personal position, by the way, so I'm not going to bother looking up statistics for it. I'm only describing what anti-immigration's perceptions are. It's safe to say that there's a widely held belief (among immigration opponents, at least) that immigrants "steal" jobs from natives. eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Criticisms_of_the_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Criticisms_of_the_pr...
dev_tty01 6y ago
I completely agree that the borders should be open and bringing bright people from the all over the world to the US is fantastic. I am also opposed to the recent ruling. I am thankful that you are here. However, I do think the term "generation" is unnecessarily hyperbolic. We are talking about a year (or two), not a generation.

tomrod 6y ago

We are of a like mind. To answer the "why" folks may think this, you and I are considering the general equilibrium impact of the policy, but the vast majority of folks think in terms of partial equilibrium/first order. And on a first order, the "jobs" that folks holding these student visas will be vacated and thus "available" for domestic students. Such nativist views typically fail to grasp that said jobs may simply not be available due to companies sending work to the talent, not just to the trained. Myopia is a terrible thing to live in denial with, but unfortunately such as things are.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago

Realistically the actual competitors of America here are Canada, the UK and Europe more generally. I suspect that a lot of this immigration is both the desire for high-paying jobs and to live in a (slightly) more stable country.

Tinyyy 6y ago
There is a growing number of Chinese students who graduate from top Chinese universities or return to work in China after their US education. The US may hold a dominant position right now, but that lead is fading and the unwelcoming attitude towards immigrants is driving the best and brightest back home. This is especially true in engineering (vs academia where US still has a huge advantage), where there has been an explosion in Chinese tech companies who pay salaries competent to US tech companies when adjusting for CoL. It’s therefore not surprising that in the last decade we saw many rising Chinese companies like TikTok, Xiaomi, Tencent make waves even in American markets. In the next decade, if the US fails to capture the brightest minds of the world, we could see China start to become a viable alternative to the US, especially for tech workers.
- booboolayla 6y ago
  This way of reasoning is like a Chinese finger trap. We are educating China's new (first?) generation of scientists, so if they stay here they'll somehow work for our benefit and not that of China, and if they go back then it's even worse supposedly. How about we don't educate CCP's scientists at all? Knowledge is power and we are selling it wholesale to CCP.
- nothal 6y ago
  I can't imagine it being viable for most Western tech workers given the climate of human rights and politics. I am a tech worker, I even have a particular interest in China and know a little Mandarin but I would never live or work there long term given what I know.
  - kyawzazaw 6y ago
    It really doesn’t need western tech workers that much in huge troves. Look at people Alibaba has poached for top AI positions. Also, are you aware of 1000 Talents plan? I suppose you are also aware of Tsinghua and other 8 schools that are super strong? Especially two of them in AI.
- kaliali 6y ago
  Yeah... I don't see how anyone would strive to go to China considering everything that's been happening and how racist they are to African immigrant workers over there. If you think the US government is acting xenophobic, China is on a whole different level. Video of an Africans being evicted from chinese apartment due to racism https://youtu.be/KQaNdTKQyLY?t=310 https://youtu.be/KQaNdTKQyLY?t=310 https://youtu.be/V3jHADADWc0?t=39 https://youtu.be/V3jHADADWc0?t=39 Racist incidents against Africans in China amid coronavirus crackdown spark outcry https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-racism-africans-china/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-racism-africans-chi... Africans told to leave homes as Chinese regime blames foreigners for bringing CCP virus to China https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvN4WHBhnoo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvN4WHBhnoo
  - hef19898 6y ago

gruez 6y ago

>It’s like a sports team: you have the ability to draft the top players from around the world for cheap. Why would you decide to boycott the draft itself and let the competitors (India, China) take those players? Especially some players that you have already trained (graduated students, post docs) You're thinking about it from the wrong perspective. The people who are anti-immigration are anti-immigration because they personally might be negatively impacted (in terms of losing jobs or getting lower wages), even if it means the country as a whole is better off. Seeing the US GDP grow 30% faster is little consolation to you when you've lost your job to immigrants (or at least, you thought that you did). Going back to the sports team analogy, it'd be great if your team drafted the best international players and won, but what if that resulted in you getting kicked off the team, or sidelined most of the season?

vowelless 6y ago
If that’s the case, then why not have teams draft from the region they represent? For example, maybe the Patriots should not have had a foreign Michigander as their QB for 20 years, that spot could have been given to some up and coming Boston College graduate. To address your point a bit more directly: can you show me studies where native born Americans have lost jobs to immigrants in the US? I know that many jobs got moved to China and Mexico, but that’s not what I am wondering about.
- gruez 6y ago
  > If that’s the case, then why not have teams draft from the region they represent? For example, maybe the Patriots should not have had a foreign Michigander as their QB for 20 years, that spot could have been given to some up and coming Boston College graduate. In the sports analogy, I'm describing it from the point of a player, not a fan. A fan's role in this is closer to shareholder rather than employee. They primarily care about winning (presumably). Ultimately the team is beholden to their fans, not to their players. >To address your point a bit more directly: can you show me studies where native born Americans have lost jobs to immigrants in the US? I know that many jobs got moved to China and Mexico, but that’s not what I am wondering about. That's not my personal position, by the way, so I'm not going to bother looking up statistics for it. I'm only describing what anti-immigration's perceptions are. It's safe to say that there's a widely held belief (among immigration opponents, at least) that immigrants "steal" jobs from natives. eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Criticisms_of_the_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Criticisms_of_the_pr...

dev_tty01 6y ago

I completely agree that the borders should be open and bringing bright people from the all over the world to the US is fantastic. I am also opposed to the recent ruling. I am thankful that you are here. However, I do think the term "generation" is unnecessarily hyperbolic. We are talking about a year (or two), not a generation.