5 ms·

When interviewing new candidates it's interesting to see the difference between beginner/mid and seniors. The beginner/mid group seem to have a lot more confide

by ferros 6y ago

When interviewing new candidates it's interesting to see the difference between beginner/mid and seniors. The beginner/mid group seem to have a lot more confidence in their skills and not be as aware of what they don't know. The seniors seem to be more aware of what they don't know and maybe also a little harder on themselves.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
_hao 6y ago
That's what I've always done in interviews. I'm confident about the things I know well, but I'm extremely open about the things I don't know and would like to improve.
BossingAround 6y ago
I think this is a common viewpoint, and a misconception. I've seen a number of juniors who were very humble, and this humility was perceived as lack of knowledge. I've interviewed some seniors who were not humble at all (nothing was an issue). In general, skill level has little to do with humility and other personal traits. However, we like to project our reasoning into other's emotions, and we love to pattern match, e.g. "she's humble because she has 20 years of experience". It's another bias you should look for when interviewing candidates. This one definitely does not serve you well.
- codegladiator 6y ago
  > I think this is a common viewpoint, and a misconception. Probably a common viewpoint, but definitely not a misconception. I have had freshers tell me wrong answers which they know they are answering wrong with so much confidence. And you keep digging them on their answer and they would keep coming up with even more wrong stuff. It would probably be about 2 or 3 out of 10 freshers who can say "i don't know that".
  - maccard 6y ago
    And I've had senior candidates (with 10+ years experience) do the same thing, even after throwing them a lifeline. This isn't a trait of junior-ity (is that a word?), it's a behaviour. I suspect if you interviewed those 7 or 8 juniors in 10-15 years, many of them will continue to bolster.
    - severine 6y ago
      junior-ity (is that a word?) Seems so: This word is first recorded in the period 1590–1600. Source: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/juniority https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/juniori...
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    I have sometimes interviewed to specifically find whether a candidate could utter “I don’t know” (and ideally add “, but here’s how I’d handle it, find out, learn it, etc.”) It’s amazing (and a little amusing) how many people literally can’t admit they don’t know something. I have “passed” some otherwise very strong candidates who couldn’t admit that and made it a point to advise them after hiring how dangerous that limitation is both when doing the actual work and when interviewing. A not at all surprising fraction of them couldn’t admit/understand they even did it, of course.
    - BossingAround 6y ago
      > I have sometimes interviewed to specifically find whether a candidate could utter “I don’t know” (and ideally add “, but here’s how I’d handle it, find out, learn it, etc.”) I've done the same. The problem is that in a lot of companies, uttering "I don't know" is perceived as a weakness, and makes you "not a culture fit," so I can completely understand the hesitation...
      - frandroid 6y ago
        That's what you call a self-solving problem. You don't want to work for these companies. :)
- ferros 6y ago
  Fair comment I can see where you're coming from in terms of humility and bias. Again I can only talk from personal experience but I notice this also from self assessment exercises in performance reviews. Humility aside the more senior developers (in my opinion) are more able to accurately gauge their strengths and shortcomings. And I can't help but wonder if these skills are part of what help them develop from junior/mid to senior.
  - dgb23 6y ago
    Related: The Dunning-Kruger effect[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    - username90 6y ago
      Dunning-Kruger effect says that people with more skill are more confident in their skills, albeit it isn't a perfect correlation so skilled people underestimate themselves and unskilled people overestimate themselves relative to others.
- thejohnconway 6y ago
  Have you got any citations for this? Because you’re stating it very definitively, given that many people experience the effect.
- bluesign 6y ago
  I think this is related to relativity, one data feature missing, which is the level of job vs their previous exposure. Basically with juniors you don’t know what they have been exposed before. In general less they are exposed, more confident they are. Ofc humility is also a factor in this.
- brabel 6y ago
  > In general, skill level has little to do with humility and other personal traits. Here, you're using "skill level" as a proxy to years of experience, because the OP used the term "seniority" which usually means years of experience. So while I think you may be correct when it comes to actual skill level (though I have seen no evidence presented to support this claim), you're definitely incorrect when it comes to "seniority", unless you believe old people and young people do not present different levels of "humility" and "personal traits". To avoid being accused of not providing evidence: _you can reasonably presume a 66-year-old will be more conscientious, more agreeable, and more emotionally stable than their adolescent self._ https://www.iflscience.com/brain/study-reveals-how-your-personality-changes-from-the-ages-of-16-to-66/ https://www.iflscience.com/brain/study-reveals-how-your-pers... _As you progress through adulthood personality becomes more stable and predictable because you fall into a pattern of thinking, behaving, and feeling._ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_changes#Change_over_a_lifetime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_changes#Change_ove... _Conscientious-ness, a trait marked by organization and discipline, and linked to success at work and in relationships, was found to increase through the age ranges studied, with the most change occurring in a person's 20s. Agreeableness, a trait associated with being warm, generous and helpful, bucked the theory that personalities don't change after 30. On the contrary, people in the study showed the most change in agreeableness during their 30s and continued to improve through their 60s. This even happened among men, which debunks the concept of "grumpy old men," Srivastava says._ https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/personality https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/personality
scarface74 6y ago
Aka. The Dunning Kruger Effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
znpy 6y ago
> The beginner/mid group seem to have a lot more confidence in their skills and not be as aware of what they don't know. This might be misinterpreted though. A common advice for interviews is to underline your key strenghts. A candidate rightfully plays their game by showing expertise and mastery of the things they believe they know and try to at least appear worth hiring. It's up to the interviewer to try and move the conversation to a topic the candidate is not very familiar with and see how they react and handle it. In general, is down to the interviewer to go beyond the "oh yeah i know that" and ask specific question that demostrate actual understanding. But then again, it's fair game to present your best self during an interview. You're literally selling yourself to a potential employer.
muzani 6y ago
A way of putting it is that some beginners are fanatical in the rules they follow. I find they have strong opinions on using say, a string template, or SOLID, and be judgemental on those who don't. The seniors can be extremely cocky, but they realize when to follow or break rules. They may have strong opinions, weakly held. They'll proudly challenge something to see if it hold weight, but back off once they're wrong. There's some special cases too, like people who are beginners in project management but experts in development, and they can have fanatical opinions on project management.
- andi999 6y ago
  let me throw in the 'goto' statement here...
kelvin0 6y ago
Also consider that juniors are all bright eyed and full of optimism and certainly tend to idealize things at first. Then experience, hardships, victories and org politics teaches them the 'real' game and hopefully they use that experience to their advantage. You become a cautious optimist. And not a cynical ol' grumpy bastard like me.

by ferros 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

_hao 6y ago

That's what I've always done in interviews. I'm confident about the things I know well, but I'm extremely open about the things I don't know and would like to improve.

BossingAround 6y ago

I think this is a common viewpoint, and a misconception. I've seen a number of juniors who were very humble, and this humility was perceived as lack of knowledge. I've interviewed some seniors who were not humble at all (nothing was an issue). In general, skill level has little to do with humility and other personal traits. However, we like to project our reasoning into other's emotions, and we love to pattern match, e.g. "she's humble because she has 20 years of experience". It's another bias you should look for when interviewing candidates. This one definitely does not serve you well.

codegladiator 6y ago
> I think this is a common viewpoint, and a misconception. Probably a common viewpoint, but definitely not a misconception. I have had freshers tell me wrong answers which they know they are answering wrong with so much confidence. And you keep digging them on their answer and they would keep coming up with even more wrong stuff. It would probably be about 2 or 3 out of 10 freshers who can say "i don't know that".
- maccard 6y ago
  And I've had senior candidates (with 10+ years experience) do the same thing, even after throwing them a lifeline. This isn't a trait of junior-ity (is that a word?), it's a behaviour. I suspect if you interviewed those 7 or 8 juniors in 10-15 years, many of them will continue to bolster.
  - severine 6y ago
    junior-ity (is that a word?) Seems so: This word is first recorded in the period 1590–1600. Source: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/juniority https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/juniori...
- sokoloff 6y ago
  I have sometimes interviewed to specifically find whether a candidate could utter “I don’t know” (and ideally add “, but here’s how I’d handle it, find out, learn it, etc.”) It’s amazing (and a little amusing) how many people literally can’t admit they don’t know something. I have “passed” some otherwise very strong candidates who couldn’t admit that and made it a point to advise them after hiring how dangerous that limitation is both when doing the actual work and when interviewing. A not at all surprising fraction of them couldn’t admit/understand they even did it, of course.
  - BossingAround 6y ago
    > I have sometimes interviewed to specifically find whether a candidate could utter “I don’t know” (and ideally add “, but here’s how I’d handle it, find out, learn it, etc.”) I've done the same. The problem is that in a lot of companies, uttering "I don't know" is perceived as a weakness, and makes you "not a culture fit," so I can completely understand the hesitation...
    - frandroid 6y ago
      That's what you call a self-solving problem. You don't want to work for these companies. :)
ferros 6y ago
Fair comment I can see where you're coming from in terms of humility and bias. Again I can only talk from personal experience but I notice this also from self assessment exercises in performance reviews. Humility aside the more senior developers (in my opinion) are more able to accurately gauge their strengths and shortcomings. And I can't help but wonder if these skills are part of what help them develop from junior/mid to senior.
- dgb23 6y ago
  Related: The Dunning-Kruger effect[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  - username90 6y ago
    Dunning-Kruger effect says that people with more skill are more confident in their skills, albeit it isn't a perfect correlation so skilled people underestimate themselves and unskilled people overestimate themselves relative to others.
thejohnconway 6y ago
Have you got any citations for this? Because you’re stating it very definitively, given that many people experience the effect.
bluesign 6y ago
I think this is related to relativity, one data feature missing, which is the level of job vs their previous exposure. Basically with juniors you don’t know what they have been exposed before. In general less they are exposed, more confident they are. Ofc humility is also a factor in this.
brabel 6y ago
> In general, skill level has little to do with humility and other personal traits. Here, you're using "skill level" as a proxy to years of experience, because the OP used the term "seniority" which usually means years of experience. So while I think you may be correct when it comes to actual skill level (though I have seen no evidence presented to support this claim), you're definitely incorrect when it comes to "seniority", unless you believe old people and young people do not present different levels of "humility" and "personal traits". To avoid being accused of not providing evidence: _you can reasonably presume a 66-year-old will be more conscientious, more agreeable, and more emotionally stable than their adolescent self._ https://www.iflscience.com/brain/study-reveals-how-your-personality-changes-from-the-ages-of-16-to-66/ https://www.iflscience.com/brain/study-reveals-how-your-pers... _As you progress through adulthood personality becomes more stable and predictable because you fall into a pattern of thinking, behaving, and feeling._ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_changes#Change_over_a_lifetime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_changes#Change_ove... _Conscientious-ness, a trait marked by organization and discipline, and linked to success at work and in relationships, was found to increase through the age ranges studied, with the most change occurring in a person's 20s. Agreeableness, a trait associated with being warm, generous and helpful, bucked the theory that personalities don't change after 30. On the contrary, people in the study showed the most change in agreeableness during their 30s and continued to improve through their 60s. This even happened among men, which debunks the concept of "grumpy old men," Srivastava says._ https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/personality https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/personality

scarface74 6y ago

Aka. The Dunning Kruger Effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

znpy 6y ago

> The beginner/mid group seem to have a lot more confidence in their skills and not be as aware of what they don't know. This might be misinterpreted though. A common advice for interviews is to underline your key strenghts. A candidate rightfully plays their game by showing expertise and mastery of the things they believe they know and try to at least appear worth hiring. It's up to the interviewer to try and move the conversation to a topic the candidate is not very familiar with and see how they react and handle it. In general, is down to the interviewer to go beyond the "oh yeah i know that" and ask specific question that demostrate actual understanding. But then again, it's fair game to present your best self during an interview. You're literally selling yourself to a potential employer.

muzani 6y ago

A way of putting it is that some beginners are fanatical in the rules they follow. I find they have strong opinions on using say, a string template, or SOLID, and be judgemental on those who don't. The seniors can be extremely cocky, but they realize when to follow or break rules. They may have strong opinions, weakly held. They'll proudly challenge something to see if it hold weight, but back off once they're wrong. There's some special cases too, like people who are beginners in project management but experts in development, and they can have fanatical opinions on project management.

andi999 6y ago
let me throw in the 'goto' statement here...

kelvin0 6y ago

Also consider that juniors are all bright eyed and full of optimism and certainly tend to idealize things at first. Then experience, hardships, victories and org politics teaches them the 'real' game and hopefully they use that experience to their advantage. You become a cautious optimist. And not a cynical ol' grumpy bastard like me.