7 ms·

Caffenol: Developing Photos with Coffee and Vitamin C [video]

155 points by lelf 6y ago

fennecfoxen 6y ago
[video]
cesaref 6y ago
Without a comparison to a commercial developer, it's very hard to tell what the effect on the negatives are. The roll of 120 he held up looked very dense to me, and looked like it was suffering from a fair degree of fogging between the frames. Saying that, if he's scanning the negatives there's plenty you can do in post to pull an image off of the negative. I'll stick with Xtol as my developer of choice, but that's just because i've been using it for such a long time it's a habit rather than an informed choice from having compared the options today :) Funnily enough it's active ingredient is ascorbic acid as far as i'm aware (vitamin C).
- GuiA 6y ago
  Caffenol is a pretty popular technique, you can find many detailed posts online comparing it with other developers. I've used it a few times in a pinch when traveling, it's nice. Unfortunately I've never been able to find a fixer formula that's as easy/off the shelf.
- Palomides 6y ago
  here's a visual comparison of various developers, including caffenol: https://web.archive.org/web/20181022154200/http://fotoimport.no/filmtest/filmTriX.html https://web.archive.org/web/20181022154200/http://fotoimport...
  - cesaref 6y ago
    Yeah, that's a really handy resource. Shows what i'd expect, with a heavy grainy look to caffenol, but I can see it being useful if that's your thing
    - jacobush 6y ago
      I expected much "worse", the graininess isn't bad at all IMHO.
gmoes 6y ago
I wonder if Kodak's Ascorbic Acid-Based XTOL Developer was inspired by this idea.
- galago 6y ago
  Xtol was created in 1996, making it the last really new developer. My understanding is that one of the design goals was to make a developer that was less toxic, and that ascorbic acid was part of it. I wish they still sold it in 1 liter increments. The current package makes 5 liters which means its hard for me to use before it goes bad.
  - js2 6y ago
    Can you separate the two powder packets by weight into 5 parts?
    - snitzr 6y ago
      Yes. I like to weight it out on a digital scale and make 2.5 liter batches. Seal the bag of unused powder with tape.
    - frostburg 6y ago
      Generally it's better to avoid doing this, because you're unlikely to get a even split of the ingredients in each packet.
  - jacobush 6y ago
    It has lasted 2 years for me if done with distilled water and stored in soda bottles with no air.
losthobbies 6y ago
James Hoffman is great. I love his videos they are singlehandedly sending me deeper and deeper down the coffee rabbit hole
nouveaux 6y ago
This is James Hoffmann's channel. He is very conscientious in his videos, which is oriented towards espresso and coffee. Besides for coffee, the drink, he cares a lot about usability, beauty, but also practicality of things he reviews. If you tried an espresso, it tasted bad and wonder why people would drink it, his channel will be enlightening.
- andrewxdiamond 6y ago
  Not to mention he often criticizes products for their sustainability and waste products!
29athrowaway 6y ago
This man looks like a younger relative of Steve Buscemi. But on a more serious note, the channel content is great.
DiabloD3 6y ago
I'd never imagine I'd see James Hoffmann featured on HN's front page. If I knew you guys would have liked him, I would have linked his stuff ages ago. He recently borrowed a high speed camera and filmed espresso, and, somehow, produced beautiful art: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzEiZdcss88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzEiZdcss88
- hardwaregeek 6y ago
  I definitely believe James Hoffmann is a kindred spirit to your average HN user. He's obsessed with detail, methodical processes and high quality results. I wouldn't be surprised if he's dabbled in programming or educated as an engineer. Plus his hair and clothes game is on point
  - flixic 6y ago
    Also, World Barista Champion 2007.
    - hardwaregeek 6y ago
      With significantly worse hair though :D
    - ignoramous 6y ago
      His routine that won him that (with his own commentary): https://youtu.be/_DwZV17bek4 https://youtu.be/_DwZV17bek4
  - ignoramous 6y ago
    > I wouldn't be surprised if he's dabbled in programming or educated as an engineer. Not sure, but he's involved with Sudden Coffee [0], a YC company. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gUoMAhcTC0&t=1m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gUoMAhcTC0&t=1m40s
  - jimseven 6y ago
    I don't think trying to build stuff in Visual Basic in my early teens really counts, and I have the world's fluffiest arts degree. But I aspire to the skills and approach of an engineer!
war1025 6y ago
I completely forgot why I was watching this video or how I came across it, but I found it quite enjoyable. A nice afternoon distraction from work.
ginko 6y ago
Alternative processes are pretty cool, but you still need regular fixer for fixing the final image. That's by far the nastiest chemical in b&w chemistry and can't really be replaced. I've once read you can get a similarish result by essentially storing the film in rather concentrated salt solution for several hours to days, but that doesn't seem quite practical: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0 http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0
- philipkglass 6y ago
  Are you talking about sodium thiosulfate? It's less acutely toxic (oral LD 50) than table salt in animals, has no known chronic health risks, doesn't persist in the environment, and is non-flammable.
  - parshimers 6y ago
    Yes, but once it becomes laden with powdered, precipitated silver it is far less benign. Silver is still a heavy metal after all, even if it is not the most acutely dangerous one.
    - foobar1962 6y ago
      The problem then is the dissolved silver, not the thiosulphate.
      - namibj 6y ago
        And just evaporating it down should be a suitable concentration step, if not just electroplating the silver out of solution with a graphite anode or something like that.
  - jimv206 6y ago
    This is true with regards to fresh fixer but, once it's used it contains silver which, as reported by, sciencedaily.com: "We found that silver nanoparticles are extremely toxic. The nanoparticles destroy the benign species of bacteria that are used for wastewater treatment. It basically halts the reproduction activity of the good bacteria." I photograph onto paper, develop with caffenol, digitize after the stop bath (quickly) and discard the paper so as to avoid using fixer. Yes, there is silver on that paper but I'm hoping that silver in an incinerator or even landfill is better than silver in the wastewater. Back in the day when analog photography was just called photography, there were inexpensive silver recovery filters available. Now, if you want to use fixer, try to find a local film lab that will take your "spent" fixer.
rafaelturk 6y ago
MacGyver Feelings
eezurr 6y ago
This is great, but I am frustrated to see the effects of Google's 10 minute "minimum". The video did not need to be 13 minutes long and the filler parts were obvious. At scale, this is uncountable thousands of hours of human time. I dont know if that's important, but it makes the experience less genuine.
- azinman2 6y ago
  What is Google's 10 minute "minimum"?
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    I think you either only get paid for, or get paid a great deal more for, videos that are at least 10 minutes. Even high quality YouTube produces often make videos that are exactly 10 minutes and 30 seconds, and it's sometimes fairly obvious.
  - mardifoufs 6y ago
    Videos under 10 minutes can only have 1 ad (I'm not sure but I think it's only short ads too) so you get less revenue per video. The algorithm also favors longer videos because more watch time means the video is more likely to be recommended to viewers. But there are rumours that being over 10 minutes specifically is what matters most to the YouTube algo.
- jimseven 6y ago
  This might be true if there were mid-roll ads, which there aren't on this video. I just liked it this way.
frostburg 6y ago
I use Caffenol LC-C for Agfa Copex Rapid (a microfilm stock that needs very low contrast development). With other microfilms I use dedicated commercial developers, but it's hard to source the Spur one for Copex Rapid. https://i.lensdump.com/i/WNPsAx.jpg https://i.lensdump.com/i/WNPsAx.jpg (Leica M6 TTL, Elmarit-M 90/2.8, Agfa Copex Rapid, Caffenol LC-C) https://i1.lensdump.com/i/jY29hM.jpg https://i1.lensdump.com/i/jY29hM.jpg (Leica M6 TTL, Elmarit-M 90/2.8, Agfa Copex Rapid, Caffenol LC-C) https://i1.lensdump.com/i/jY2qCQ.jpg https://i1.lensdump.com/i/jY2qCQ.jpg (Leica M6 TTL, Voigtlander Ultron 35/1.7 VM, Agfa Copex Rapid, Caffenol LC-C)
- Renaud 6y ago
  It's nice to see that such a simple process can lead to such good results.
jakkyboi 6y ago
James is so cute
- sgt 6y ago
  How is this relevant for HN?
  - jakkyboi 6y ago
    Because coffee
johncalvinyoung 6y ago
I was just talking with my girlfriend yesterday about the various reasons for overlap between coffee nerds (espresso and pourover) and software engineers. Delighted to see this video here (I usually pick up his video links from Reddit), though it does come across as potentially peak hipster.
person_of_color 6y ago
Related qn: are there any good guides to building a pinhole camera?

155 points by lelf 6y ago

[video]

Without a comparison to a commercial developer, it's very hard to tell what the effect on the negatives are. The roll of 120 he held up looked very dense to me, and looked like it was suffering from a fair degree of fogging between the frames. Saying that, if he's scanning the negatives there's plenty you can do in post to pull an image off of the negative. I'll stick with Xtol as my developer of choice, but that's just because i've been using it for such a long time it's a habit rather than an informed choice from having compared the options today :) Funnily enough it's active ingredient is ascorbic acid as far as i'm aware (vitamin C).

GuiA 6y ago
Caffenol is a pretty popular technique, you can find many detailed posts online comparing it with other developers. I've used it a few times in a pinch when traveling, it's nice. Unfortunately I've never been able to find a fixer formula that's as easy/off the shelf.
Palomides 6y ago
here's a visual comparison of various developers, including caffenol: https://web.archive.org/web/20181022154200/http://fotoimport.no/filmtest/filmTriX.html https://web.archive.org/web/20181022154200/http://fotoimport...
- cesaref 6y ago
  Yeah, that's a really handy resource. Shows what i'd expect, with a heavy grainy look to caffenol, but I can see it being useful if that's your thing
  - jacobush 6y ago
    I expected much "worse", the graininess isn't bad at all IMHO.

gmoes 6y ago

I wonder if Kodak's Ascorbic Acid-Based XTOL Developer was inspired by this idea.

galago 6y ago
Xtol was created in 1996, making it the last really new developer. My understanding is that one of the design goals was to make a developer that was less toxic, and that ascorbic acid was part of it. I wish they still sold it in 1 liter increments. The current package makes 5 liters which means its hard for me to use before it goes bad.
- js2 6y ago
  Can you separate the two powder packets by weight into 5 parts?
  - snitzr 6y ago
    Yes. I like to weight it out on a digital scale and make 2.5 liter batches. Seal the bag of unused powder with tape.
  - frostburg 6y ago
    Generally it's better to avoid doing this, because you're unlikely to get a even split of the ingredients in each packet.
- jacobush 6y ago
  It has lasted 2 years for me if done with distilled water and stored in soda bottles with no air.

losthobbies 6y ago

James Hoffman is great. I love his videos they are singlehandedly sending me deeper and deeper down the coffee rabbit hole

nouveaux 6y ago

This is James Hoffmann's channel. He is very conscientious in his videos, which is oriented towards espresso and coffee. Besides for coffee, the drink, he cares a lot about usability, beauty, but also practicality of things he reviews. If you tried an espresso, it tasted bad and wonder why people would drink it, his channel will be enlightening.

andrewxdiamond 6y ago
Not to mention he often criticizes products for their sustainability and waste products!

29athrowaway 6y ago

This man looks like a younger relative of Steve Buscemi. But on a more serious note, the channel content is great.

DiabloD3 6y ago

I'd never imagine I'd see James Hoffmann featured on HN's front page. If I knew you guys would have liked him, I would have linked his stuff ages ago. He recently borrowed a high speed camera and filmed espresso, and, somehow, produced beautiful art: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzEiZdcss88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzEiZdcss88

hardwaregeek 6y ago
I definitely believe James Hoffmann is a kindred spirit to your average HN user. He's obsessed with detail, methodical processes and high quality results. I wouldn't be surprised if he's dabbled in programming or educated as an engineer. Plus his hair and clothes game is on point
- flixic 6y ago
  Also, World Barista Champion 2007.
  - hardwaregeek 6y ago
    With significantly worse hair though :D
  - ignoramous 6y ago
    His routine that won him that (with his own commentary): https://youtu.be/_DwZV17bek4 https://youtu.be/_DwZV17bek4
- ignoramous 6y ago
  > I wouldn't be surprised if he's dabbled in programming or educated as an engineer. Not sure, but he's involved with Sudden Coffee [0], a YC company. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gUoMAhcTC0&t=1m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gUoMAhcTC0&t=1m40s
- jimseven 6y ago
  I don't think trying to build stuff in Visual Basic in my early teens really counts, and I have the world's fluffiest arts degree. But I aspire to the skills and approach of an engineer!

war1025 6y ago

I completely forgot why I was watching this video or how I came across it, but I found it quite enjoyable. A nice afternoon distraction from work.

ginko 6y ago

Alternative processes are pretty cool, but you still need regular fixer for fixing the final image. That's by far the nastiest chemical in b&w chemistry and can't really be replaced. I've once read you can get a similarish result by essentially storing the film in rather concentrated salt solution for several hours to days, but that doesn't seem quite practical: http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0 http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0

philipkglass 6y ago
Are you talking about sodium thiosulfate? It's less acutely toxic (oral LD 50) than table salt in animals, has no known chronic health risks, doesn't persist in the environment, and is non-flammable.
- parshimers 6y ago
  Yes, but once it becomes laden with powdered, precipitated silver it is far less benign. Silver is still a heavy metal after all, even if it is not the most acutely dangerous one.
  - foobar1962 6y ago
    The problem then is the dissolved silver, not the thiosulphate.
    - namibj 6y ago
      And just evaporating it down should be a suitable concentration step, if not just electroplating the silver out of solution with a graphite anode or something like that.
- jimv206 6y ago
  This is true with regards to fresh fixer but, once it's used it contains silver which, as reported by, sciencedaily.com: "We found that silver nanoparticles are extremely toxic. The nanoparticles destroy the benign species of bacteria that are used for wastewater treatment. It basically halts the reproduction activity of the good bacteria." I photograph onto paper, develop with caffenol, digitize after the stop bath (quickly) and discard the paper so as to avoid using fixer. Yes, there is silver on that paper but I'm hoping that silver in an incinerator or even landfill is better than silver in the wastewater. Back in the day when analog photography was just called photography, there were inexpensive silver recovery filters available. Now, if you want to use fixer, try to find a local film lab that will take your "spent" fixer.

rafaelturk 6y ago

MacGyver Feelings

eezurr 6y ago

This is great, but I am frustrated to see the effects of Google's 10 minute "minimum". The video did not need to be 13 minutes long and the filler parts were obvious. At scale, this is uncountable thousands of hours of human time. I dont know if that's important, but it makes the experience less genuine.

azinman2 6y ago
What is Google's 10 minute "minimum"?
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  I think you either only get paid for, or get paid a great deal more for, videos that are at least 10 minutes. Even high quality YouTube produces often make videos that are exactly 10 minutes and 30 seconds, and it's sometimes fairly obvious.
- mardifoufs 6y ago
  Videos under 10 minutes can only have 1 ad (I'm not sure but I think it's only short ads too) so you get less revenue per video. The algorithm also favors longer videos because more watch time means the video is more likely to be recommended to viewers. But there are rumours that being over 10 minutes specifically is what matters most to the YouTube algo.
jimseven 6y ago
This might be true if there were mid-roll ads, which there aren't on this video. I just liked it this way.

frostburg 6y ago

I use Caffenol LC-C for Agfa Copex Rapid (a microfilm stock that needs very low contrast development). With other microfilms I use dedicated commercial developers, but it's hard to source the Spur one for Copex Rapid. https://i.lensdump.com/i/WNPsAx.jpg https://i.lensdump.com/i/WNPsAx.jpg (Leica M6 TTL, Elmarit-M 90/2.8, Agfa Copex Rapid, Caffenol LC-C) https://i1.lensdump.com/i/jY29hM.jpg https://i1.lensdump.com/i/jY29hM.jpg (Leica M6 TTL, Elmarit-M 90/2.8, Agfa Copex Rapid, Caffenol LC-C) https://i1.lensdump.com/i/jY2qCQ.jpg https://i1.lensdump.com/i/jY2qCQ.jpg (Leica M6 TTL, Voigtlander Ultron 35/1.7 VM, Agfa Copex Rapid, Caffenol LC-C)

Renaud 6y ago
It's nice to see that such a simple process can lead to such good results.

jakkyboi 6y ago

James is so cute

sgt 6y ago
How is this relevant for HN?
- jakkyboi 6y ago
  Because coffee

johncalvinyoung 6y ago

I was just talking with my girlfriend yesterday about the various reasons for overlap between coffee nerds (espresso and pourover) and software engineers. Delighted to see this video here (I usually pick up his video links from Reddit), though it does come across as potentially peak hipster.

person_of_color 6y ago

Related qn: are there any good guides to building a pinhole camera?