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Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

280 points by artur_makly 6y ago

eloisius 6y ago
I really hope universities can find a loophole around this. Three days of in-class lecture per semester, but allow for three unexcused absences for any reason.
- dx87 6y ago
  The college I go to uses a loophole to allow military veterans to get the full monetary benefits of attending an in person class, while doing everything online. They don't have attendance requirements, all the material taught in class has to be available online, and no exercises or in class assignments count towards your final grade. That way the school can say you enrolled in an in-person class, and the student gets to decide whether or not they want to show up. Admittedly, the in class instruction normally isn't very good, and maybe 5-10 people still come in after the first few weeks.
pjc50 6y ago
Nicely timed to deport HK students back there.
mc32 6y ago
Key quote: >” Visa requirements for students have always been strict and coming to the US to take online-only courses has been prohibited.” So it’s a reinforcement of policy rather than change although some institutions would like to see accommodation for this kind of circumstance —which is understandable if students came here with the intent to attend in person, but it’s worth noting the the visa requirements have not changed
- Loughla 6y ago
  Foreign students can only take 1 online class at our institution due to current policy. When we scrambled to move all online during the stay-home orders, one question we didn't have answered was whether or not those students could even stay if we went entirely online. The policy didn't change at all, it's super restrictive. What institutions I'm affiliated with are asking is for temporary flexibility during COVID-19. Specific start and end dates based on periodic review of health measures. And the answer is still a resounding 'no' from any sort of federal representative we can get in touch with. This, honestly, feels like the federal immigration department is trying to punish schools who are more cautious about opening up like nothing is happening. It tastes bad. edit: edited to reflect the inaccuracy as pointed out by PeterisP. SEVIS is overseen by ICE, not the department of education. Our representatives for SEVIS are generally connected to the DoE in some fashion. I didn't realize folks wouldn't know that ICE oversees immigrants, and that the Ed Department isn't responsible for making this policy.
  - PeterisP 6y ago
    It's not like any education representative can change immigration policy or grant some exceptions, it's not up to them. If taking online classes means that the students visas become invalid, or if their current visa restrictions mean that it's prohibited for them to be in an online-only program, then that's exactly what it means, and it's wrong to blame schools or education department about it, it's not about education but about immigration policy - the domain of Department of State, Congress, etc.
    - Blahah 6y ago
      Surely every person involved should simply be turning to the people above/before them in the chain of command and saying "this is impossible, we need to be more flexible now". And whoever is blocking that escalation is reasonably part of the problem.
      - grayfaced 6y ago
        Escalating only works when you can reach reason in the higher chain. You can only go to senior leadership with the options and consequences. We have option A or option B, or we do nothing and we have consequence C. When that leader picks consequence C then you're stuck. We have an administration that doesn't value academia or the visa program. So it's no surprise they're willing to sacrifice it in name of "schools must open".
        Blahah 6y ago
        Firstly, I don't know of any situation where that's true. If your manager is insisting on something impossible or immoral/unethical, you escalate. Escalating doesn't have to be within the organisation. It can be going public, going sideways (to clients/collaborators), or going way up (to investors/funders/government/regulators). Secondly, what I was saying is that whoever is the person that refuses to take it higher - that person is the problem. If you're stuck underneath them, go above them, or go public, or do whatever you need to do to avoid compromising yourself.
      - 6y ago
- the_pwner224 6y ago
  It's a total dick move by them to enforce it right now. If the student is normally enrolled full time in person and they just have this/next semester online, they shouldn't be required to pack their bags and leave for just one or two semesters. That's very different from the intent of not letting online students physically enter the us for no reason. Already many students were stuck here in may since international travel was restricted by many countries. Doing stupid pointless shit like this has no positive effect.
- roywiggins 6y ago
  That requirement was waived this spring. They're unwaiving it.[0] Rigid enforcement of rules designed for a world that doesn't exist anymore, and won't for a while, is a deliberate choice and not one that we have to make. The pandemic is an ongoing rolling emergency. Making life worse for people for no good reason may be the default, but that doesn't mean that the people who can waive the rule shouldn't be held responsible when they decide not to. Inaction and action are nearly indistinguishable from the side of the people being affected. [0] See this guidance from March: "Given the extraordinary nature of the COVID-19 emergency, SEVP will allow F-1 and/or M-1 students to temporarily count online classes towards a full course of study in excess of the limits... This temporary provision is only in effect for the duration of the emergency" Absolutely nothing substantive has changed since then, but ICE has apparently changed its mind and- implausibly- decided the emergency is over. It's absurd. https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2020/Coronavirus%20Guidance_3.13.20.pdf https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2...
  - gcbw3 6y ago
    The university i'm associated with, because of the pandemic, not only all the international students are having online classes, but the international grad students teaching the classes are giving them online too. And all those grad students on a teaching scholarship were told to remain in the US because their scholarship is tied to being residents of the State for some tax reason or another for the institution. fun times.
    - compscistd 6y ago
      Couldn't they offer a required in-class portion of their degree (INT 5001: "Let's Talk about COVID and being international students for 20 minutes") for all international students where completion is required for their degree but attendance is optional? Effectively, no one physically goes to the class, but it's enough to keep students in the US because it's not an online-only class.
      - mc32 6y ago
        I don’t know if that would work. The whole reason for the on-site requirement is to avoid or clamp down on Visa scams. And a loophole like that is exactly what a scam school would do.
- BolexNOLA 6y ago
  “It’s the law” is a terrible rationale though. Our values should inform our laws and their interpretation, not the other way around. There is a clear externality forcing this situation and it is clearly more detrimental to force them out of the country than to just make special accommodations/provisions. Pass a bill if that makes it more palatable and set it to have a termination date with the ability to “re-up” if this situation continues. But shrugging and going “them’s the rules” when it suits us and being flexible elsewhere (freelancers getting unemployment benefits, for instance) seems arbitrary and, frankly, capricious.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    Some logic needs to come in too though, what is the point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet? Student visas make good sense, allow people from around the world to come here and get an education which is better or different and have a cultural exchange... but if coming here just gets you the cultural exchange of going to the grocery store and watching lectures online that could be watched from anywhere... what's the point? I personally have a problem with how international students are used as cash cows and then later often as a lower class of intellectual labor in labs (I have heard first hand stories of this happening, more than once). When universities have an ample supply of people willing to do anything in order to get citizenship, the people who don't have that circumstance are pushed out because of the poor conditions enabled by the many people who accept it. Career academia sucks. Grads and post grads are paid little and way overworked chasing after the dream of a rare tenured faculty position.
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      Yet, they continued to come over and do this. They likely had a reason. Whether its prestige, a cultural experience, available work contacts post-study or whatever. And as for 'lower class intellectual labor', lets talk medical Residents? Years of indentured servitude post-doc. And we consider that reasonable.
    - zasz 6y ago
      Not every international student has a good internet connection at home, and collaborating with students in the US could be extremely different if they come from a very different time zone.
- codegeek 6y ago
  Technically it may be a reenforcement but Corona Virus has changed quite a few things and it is also a practical fact that a lot of people are stranded and cannot travel to their home countries right now that easily. So you cannot just "enforce" the law and it needs a more balanced approach by the administration. If they don't act according to the current situation, it is not a good thing regardless of what the law is. Immigration is very discretionary when it comes to these types of situations. They can always say "Hey there is this law but considering where we are with Corona, we will give you some flexibility".
- morpheuskafka 6y ago
  Right, but unlike a designed-to-be-online program, depending on the university/each individual class, many of the classes are not going to be designed with timezone differences in mind, not designed to get through local internet filters, etc. The thinking behind the rules is that there is no need to live in the US to participate in a fully-online program, but this is not applicable to a regular program that is temporarily forced to run online due to the pandemic only. Additionally, this ignores the financial losses (ex costs of breaking leases, selling property, expensive/hard to schedule air travel which may require more legs than usual now, shipping, large currency conversions) caused by a sudden move back. Additionally, there will be costs to get internet access and other necessary materials back home. Some institutions still have not announced their plans, and they can change at any time. These are people who want to and have been living on campus. They are not just taking advantage of the visa to sit in front of a computer screen for four years--so there is no reason they should have to leave. This clearly has no relevance to the initial intent of the policy, and refusing to waive it in this case demonstrates the government's effort to hurt people of other nationalities in any way possible.
hpoe 6y ago
I know this will be very unpleasant and will entail a lot of hardship for a lot of people but I can't help but wonder if in the long term this will help to start reversing the "brain drain" problem that many developing nations are struggling with. They'll still have access to their classes and be able to acquire the requisite skills, but now they'll be building something in their home country not stuck in a middle tier position within the US. Of course not saying that means the policies made are good or bad, I am just curious to the second order effect this will have.
- imposterr 6y ago
  Maybe, but I think the main problem is that a middle tier position in the US pays a lot more and provides a higher standard of living than what some can expect in their own home countries.
- achow 6y ago
  The effect would be these students would not opt for these courses. For majority of these students the main attraction is employment in USA, for a small subset experiencing American culture. In absence of both of these there is no reason for students to take online courses from American Universities.
  - troydavis 6y ago
    > The effect would be these students would not opt for these courses. For majority of these students the main attraction is employment in USA, for a small subset experiencing American culture. In absence of both of these there is no reason for students to take online courses from American Universities. Keep in mind that this is expected for 1 of at least 4 years of undergraduate, or 1 of 2-5 years of graduate, education. Someone's still going to have plenty of time living in the US and interacting with potential future US colleagues. (I'm accepting at face value your assertion that signalling provided by a degree from a US institution has ~no value. I don't think that's the case, but my comment above makes that question close to moot.)
    - 6y ago
hristov 6y ago
The last thing we need right now is to force a bunch people into international air travel. They should not enforce the policy for classes that have been temporarily moved online due to covid.
the_svd_doctor 6y ago
Original press release is https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-exemptions-nonimmigrant-students-taking-online-courses-during?fbclid=IwAR1q6W8g6uikfadS8eZDZI8ocer-Pv-mxEg5RWGZIwmb6lCu58KRklAgoL8 https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-ex... Key fact: - International student cannot legally attend a 100% online school from the US (with an F or M status). - International student in school with "Hybrid" models (some in person, some online) cannot have a 100% "online semester". The school will need to certify that the student is not taking 100% online classes. - If a Hybrid school moves to a fully online halfway through, the student needs to depart the US (or transfer to another school) This only applies for the student to be legally _within_ the US of course. EDIT: The law already prevented this, basically. Spring and Summer had special exemptions granted by DHS. So this is just a reversal to the "usual policy", which it seems many school expected would not happen (at least not that quickly). My university is scrambling to understand the exact consequences.
simonkafan 6y ago
It's truly remarkable how ignorant the US now acts towards foreign students and talents given that a lot of world class scientists, artists and innovators are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. I hope this will give Europa and Asia the chance to get some of their emigrated talents back.
xixixao 6y ago
What this policy completely misses is that some courses are real-time online, not recorded, and that people live in different timezones across the globe. This is extremely personally harmful to people affected.
- Panini_Jones 6y ago
  Moreover, some classes use online services like GDocs. GDocs aren't accessible from certain countries.
siraben 6y ago
As an international student myself, it has been a very confusing last few months, and now this. I am fortunate enough to be back in my home country but I know of many others who are stuck in the US due to travel restrictions or financial reasons. Forcing them to leave for a situation they cannot control during a pandemic is cruel. I urge everyone to sign this petition[0] to help international students who are here to pursue higher education in the US, by asking ICE to rescind their decision. [0] https://www.change.org/p/ice-let-international-students-stay https://www.change.org/p/ice-let-international-students-stay
arrayjumper 6y ago
As someone who studied in the US on an F1 visa, I can tell you that this rule has always been in place. The F1 visa was always extremely restrictive whether it was regarding minimum number of in person credits or regarding allowing students to work part time. It seems especially cruel that they'd choose to enforce the rule at a time like this.
- verganileonardo 6y ago
  I'm in the same position and I agree. The rule makes sense and is there to prevent an exploit on using student visas to move to the US. However, enforcing it during a pandemic is cruel and really reinforces how Trump and his administration are aggressive towards international people - even if we are coming to elite schools and would bring value to the US economy.
- the_svd_doctor 6y ago
  Exactly. F-1 is already very very restrictive. Enforcing this rule is bad and doesn't take any account any sort of local differences. What if the state close all college campuses ? Sorry, bye bye, go home.
- komali2 6y ago
  They previously removed the restriction. Stolen from another comment: > See this guidance from March: "Given the extraordinary nature of the COVID-19 emergency, SEVP will allow F-1 and/or M-1 students to temporarily count online classes towards a full course of study in excess of the limits... This temporary provision is only in effect for the duration of the emergency" Absolutely nothing substantive has changed since then, but ICE has apparently changed its mind. https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2.. https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2....
LockAndLol 6y ago
Well it makes sense... If you done actually have to be in the country to take the courses, then your stay is optional. For students that cannot go back due to travel restrictions or that have other obligations in the country, it would make sense to let them stay. Of course if they come from countries that do not possess the facilities necessary to access online content, that would put some students in quite a pickle. Maybe those could also be treated in a special manner, but I doubt that many would be affected. Maybe the article wasn't explicit enough, but I'm not quite seeing the problem with this decision. Maybe the manner of communication?
- the_svd_doctor 6y ago
  It's because there is no "case by case" decision or any nuance. There is no "treated in a special manner". If you can't follow your classes in person, you have to leave. If you don't, you probably won't be deported per so, but in the future, any benefits (like employment) can/will be denied.
- humanistbot 6y ago
  > For students that cannot go back due to travel restrictions or that have other obligations in the country, it would make sense to let them stay. These students will not be allowed to stay.
humanistbot 6y ago
All of those students who came to the US to try to get an education will remember this for the rest of their lives. When all of those future scientists, business leaders, journalists, politicians, artists, and so on think about the US, they will think back to how the US treated them at a time of global crisis.
atoav 6y ago
The most impotant part of studying is often the interaction with peers (IMO). This is very hard to replicate digitally.
dangoor 6y ago
In an ideal world, this is where the legislature steps in and passes a law that allows these students to stay for the 2020-21 school year, rather than assuming the executive branch just selectively continues non-enforcement of this requirement. If you're a US citizen, you can contact your representative/senators offices and ask them to deal with this.
dopamean 6y ago
Seems like bs to me. If you're on the other side of the planet you're expected to be online at 3am for lectures and exams? Ridiculous.
- thehappypm 6y ago
  You’ve clearly never taken an online class. Lectures are recorded, exams are usually flexible open windows
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    My wife's online classes are real-time. She logs in at lecture time, asks questions with the other students. Same with section. We're talking University experience here, which is all about engagement.
  - burkaman 6y ago
    This is true for a 300-person Physics 101 lecture, but many many classes are discussion-based and don't work asynchronously. Professors are doing their best to modify stuff for this situation, but it's very hard to take something that's been taught the same way for 20 years and make up something new on the fly.
  - paxys 6y ago
    You clearly have no idea how universities are operating during covid. Most online classes are real-time and collaborative.
  - msbarnett 6y ago
    My wife was taking a university course that was forced online last semester due to COVID-19. It was completely real-time, 0% recorded.
  - dopamean 6y ago
    My wife is in a masters program right now and all the lectures are live.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
stormdennis 6y ago
$50,000 a year for a Harvard undergraduate course exclusive of accommodation and food. Sounds like there's a lot of fat that could be trimmed. Sounds immoral in fact.
- whalesalad 6y ago
  It's not immoral, it's business. Harvard has presented a product and you are free to take it or leave it. What is unfortuntate though is that we've been conditioned as a society to believe that a higher education is the most valuable thing you could ever earn.
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    In France the students are paid to go to the best schools.
  - augustt 6y ago
    So, still immoral. It's gatekeeping upwards mobility with absurd prices.
    - conanbatt 6y ago
      Its a private service, they don't sell "justice"
      - stormdennis 6y ago
        It's a private service. Lots of institutions used to be private until government realized that they were effectively States within States and nationalised them in the interests of the public good
    - whalesalad 6y ago
      You're missing the entire point of my comment - college is antiquated.
      - 6y ago
ralmidani 6y ago
Instructors want to reduce their risk of exposure, which is understandable. But serving that interest also means a lot of international students will lose their visas. Would limiting seats in class to just international students be a good way to reconcile both parties' interests? Edit: this would raise issues of fairness and equal treatment (a lot of students, especially those not accustomed to remote learning, would feel cheated). There probably is no perfect solution.
- st1ck 6y ago
  With in-person classes, instructors (and students, and everyone) will get infected because of how the virus works, and there is not that much one can do about it until vaccine or herd immunity is developed. Students will lose their visas because of bureaucratic BS which can be changed anytime, but probably won't be because of the current political climate. So, one concern is grounded in nature, another in bureaucracy, I don't think there is much of reconciliation. Although I agree completely that students are not getting what they paid for (if they paid for in-person classes).
HarryHirsch 6y ago
The missing perspective is that there are visa mills just as there are diploma mills, and that enforcement from both Immigration and Customs and Department of Education is piss-weak. They should have gotten on top of these institutions long ago, but they wouldn't, so here we are. There is Georgia Tech, but there is also the College of Northern Virginia. Here is some background: https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Education-Damage-Our-Immigration-System https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Education-Damage-Our-Imm...
- jhpriestley 6y ago
  The missing context on your comment is that the CIS is a hate group according to the SPLC, which is among other heinous things in favor of the family separation policy, a crime against humanity.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    CIS is a hate group That's embarrassing. But even so, if you don't deal with known abuses you get groups like this, so it's imperative on the government to get ahead of the crazy train.
  - x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
    SPLC is a joke nowadays. They scoop up all sorts of names and label them hatemongers. It takes a lawsuit to get them to recant: [1] 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/maajid-nawaz-v-splc/562646/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/maajid-...
    - jhpriestley 6y ago
      If you think that one high-profile mistake makes them "a joke" then you might not be aware of how much work SPLC does. For example, here is their page on CIS, with hundreds of citations and direct quotes https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/center-immigration-studies https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou...
curiousllama 6y ago
This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (already a 1 in 3 shot), H1B transfers, and others in the lurch. (3) RFEs (a first step to visa denials) have been on a steep rise. As a result, not only are we kicking people out, but international applications to US schools have absolutely collapsed; fewer people are even trying. The US is actively abandoning its goal of being the land of opportunity, and it makes me sad.
- ISL 6y ago
  Vote.
  - xtreme 6y ago
    Unfortunately, Democrats don't have a great track record of passing pro skilled immigration bills either. In 2009-2010, when Democrats controlled the house and the senate as well as the presidency, they didn't bring in a single major immigration reform bill [1]. The DREAM act for childhood arrivals didn't pass the senate, and DACA was later passed through executive order in 2012. And right now some Democrats continue to oppose skilled immigration claiming that it is "racist" [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress#Major_legislation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress#M... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/22/trump-wants-skilled-immigrants-is-that-because-economics-or-coded-way-reject-latinos/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/22/trump-wan...
    - BolexNOLA 6y ago
      The immigration debate looked very different ten years ago. I’m not sure we should expect the same policies.
- three_seagrass 6y ago
ISL 6y ago
I'm expecting universities to begin to encourage international students to sign up for in-person lab classes to bypass this rule. Are any HN'ers aware of policies emerging to this effect? I expect there to be some back-and-forth between educational institutions and the government on this one.
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  I had a similar first thought. A 0 credit, single class (1 hour per semester), in-person lab classes would reduce the 100% online to ... not. I wonder if there's rules in place to prevent this.
cpufry 6y ago
vote plz tnx
thehappypm 6y ago
Well, duh. If you could get a student visa just by enrolling in a US-based online class, that would be quite the loophole for immigration.
elchin 6y ago
This is extra horrible for European, Asian and African students, due to timezones.
conanbatt 6y ago
I think this is done on purpose but not as an immigration move. Its a play against universities, a political enemy of Trump. At the same time this is happening, they are waiving the degree requirement for federal employment: a nice little monopoly rent universities had, as well as the immigration one. Americans might not appreciate this but not only colleges subsist on international students: they subsist on them requiring degrees for visas and to get preferential visa treatment. It's a path to residency. I would have much preferred that there was a semblance of Rule of Law, and it would be more like discounting college degrees entirely for immigration and remove special visa privileges for students, but this gov is stupidly against immigration.
- sg47 6y ago
  Satya Nadella and Sundar Pichai came through this route. It's not a degree for visa like you think it is.
jb775 6y ago
International students should be allowed to stay as long as they're full-time, and are accepted into an accredited university with the intention of attending in person. I guess the gray area here is that colleges, many of them being for-profit entities, are facing big drops in enrollment and can essentially sell US citizenship in exchange for tuition payments. Once an online course system is set up, the only cost is generating new user credentials.
- the_svd_doctor 6y ago
  > "sell US citizenship" This is a big overstatement. There are many far from trivial steps between being a F/M student and getting citizenship. It certainly is a way for people to start they "immigration journey" to the US, though, obviously.
- filoleg 6y ago
  > International students should be allowed to stay as long as they're full-time, and are accepted into an accredited university with the intention of attending in person. Luckily, that's exactly what these new "rules" allow for (check the source material, not just news coverage of it; the source material is written in a pretty plain and easy to understand language, not walls of legalese). You are only getting kicked out if your courseload is fully online or if you don't take enough classes to qualify for a full-time student status. Otherwise, you are good.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  Probably more accurate to say "can essentially sell US visas in exchange for tuition payments".
  - unishark 6y ago
    And that includes an addition year (or two years of STEM) of work visa after graduation. Plus something like 6 months of CPT in summers.
- gnulinux 6y ago
  Going from a student with F visa to Green Card is a >10 year adventure with all sorts of problems and complex legal framework. Not to mention, it's practically impossible for some majors, in particular if your major does not apply to OPT STEM extension, it's very hard to get H1B as you have 1 chance to be picked in lottery. This "universities sell US citizenship" thing is plain misinformation.
snackematician 6y ago
This is yet another attack against immigrant students as noted in sibling comments. But it is also an attempt to force universities to open in the Fall despite the dangers of doing so. Many universities depend on the tuition from foreign students. The timing shows this (right after Harvard announced plans to go online), as well as Trump's tweets that schools must open in Fall.
nine_zeros 6y ago
International folks need to realize that life is too precious. You don't want to spend time with bureaucracy and threat of deportation while getting education and pursuing productive careers. America of the past is gone. It's rapidly deteriorating. Save your lives and don't enter into any educational or business arrangement with America.
ausjke 6y ago
Learn from the immigration in Canada is a good idea. USA immigration system needs reform. No free welfare for anyone who is able to work. For those who supports excessive welfare, set a donation page for them to put their money where their mouth is, tax deduction is fine with me though considering they actually did something instead of just talking the talk or expecting others do what they talk. Most importantly, better the education system here first, no more trophy generation, no more AA for college admission, and reward STEM kids instead of treating them as nerds in school. Until then, you have to depend on H1B/F1 to stay ahead, which should only be a temporary fix.
yizhang7210 6y ago
I'm genuine curious what economic benefits this brings. With the very limited economics I've learned, most students are net spenders in the country, them being here will only pour more money in. Economically, how does stopping them coming in help anyone?
- maxchisto 6y ago
  Driving down aggregate demand for higher education can help bring down the cost (how effectively would depend on the elasticity of supply, which I'm not sure about). Fresh grads coming out of college with less debt should lead to higher aggregate spending in other sectors.
  - yizhang7210 6y ago
    This is interesting. But this sounds like a long term effect right? Presumably universities aren't lowering tuitions just because of this semester?
    - maxchisto 6y ago
      Yeah, long term. Also, idk if that was the intention or if it will work. I just tried to think of any theoretical benefits. Not shure what universities are doing. There are a lot of them. So far I've heard that Harvard will continue charging the same while pushing big chunk of students online. You're right about benefits of foriegn capital flowing into US through international students. Net result can very well be negative.
- bialpio 6y ago
  It helps politicians to get elected. Immigrants don't vote (they can't), citizens with anti-immigrant sentiments do.
  - yizhang7210 6y ago
    I mean this is obviously part of the consideration. But I'm curious about rational economic gains if there're any.
paganel 6y ago
On the plus side, maybe this will help with the talent brain affecting the countries from where those students come. If it matters I live in a country heavily affected by emigration.
blue11 6y ago
The whole thing is optimized for maximum cruelty, but the suggestion that students should transfer to another school that has in-person classes is just mockery. In normal times transferring to another college is a process that takes 9-10 months. The admission rate for transfer applications is really low. And that's just for domestic transfer students. It is not even theoretically possible to transfer to another school in a couple of months. Not to mention that the F-1 student visa and the I-20 form needed to obtain such a visa are for a specific school only, so international students would also have to go back to their home countries and obtain new visas.
thefrozenone 6y ago
To add a bit of color: * One of my friends went to live with her parents after her OPT expired. She was supposed to enroll in an M.S. in August, but due to COVID, the embassies in her country were shut down. While her university is hybrid, she chose to stay in her home country to take the online-only courses, which are (fortunately) discounted. * My sister, who is trying to renew her F-1 and has no other status options, is hoping that her school doesn't go online. * My mom, an immunocompromised professor, is asking the university for an exemption to their in-person requirement. The university said no. The word around is that a financial analyst explained to administration that if people don't have the "campus experience" and therefore stop paying for housing/dining halls, the university would face insolvency within 2 semesters. All in all, it seems like a way to pressure universities to open. They cannot reasonably close and lose like 5-10% more of their revenue by losing all international students, especially if they haven't figured out online course delivery to recoup some fees from F-1s.
- krnsll 6y ago
  The point about your mom (and more broadly older faculty) is important. I hope it works out for her. Vulnerable faculty will likely be forced to hold "in-person" lectures (ergo worsening their risk profiles) for the universities to create quasi-in-person courses: in that, videos will still be recorded and students probably won't show up but, on paper, it wouldn't be classified as an online course. This would likely be coupled with batch-scheduled exams being the only occasion the students need to show up in person for (or perhaps, those too are obviated via take-home exams?). This is essentially identical to some large enrollment, advanced CS theory courses I've taken.
akerro 6y ago
and they will have to pay full price tuition, what a deal!
sm0ss117 6y ago
Just another step on the way to the US becoming a pariah state. I'm really not looking forward to the next few years here. While electing a Democratic government might be able to reverse some of the policies, check out what the senate is doing to the judicial branch to see why that might not be enough, it won't return the trust or reputation of the US. The nativist, anti-intellectual, and outright fascist elements of the US have gone from a vocal minority to a genuine force in American politics thanks to the Senate. While they still are a minority of the population, probably 20% if you cast the absolute widest net possible, due to gerrymandering, 2 Senators per state, lifetime judicial appointments, the electoral college, and extreme voter suppression they are in charge of huge swaths of the government. It's gonna be a wild ride.
dang 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23755301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23755301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753182
- jb775 6y ago
  @dang - Flagging as [dupe] shouldn't remove an article from the HN front page, especially when none of the other articles are actively on the front page. Also, all [dupe] article comments should be merged and visible under each separate [dupe] article, so organic user dialogue isn't split up and minimized.
  - dang 6y ago
    Front page space is the scarcest resource on HN [1]. If we didn't remove dupes, the site would be Dupes R Us. Also, since the idea of HN is to avoid repetition [2], there wouldn't be anyone left here because readers would mutiny. We commonly merge duplicate threads, but we don't catch them all. In the case of a sensational story like this one, where there's an endless supply of comments and the threads are more or less interchangeable, it's perhaps less important. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20scarce&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20repetition&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
    - kerneltime 6y ago
      Wow! no sign of this or any other thread from the front page..
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
notacoward 6y ago
My academic friends are going absolutely bananas over this. Particularly at the graduate level, and particularly in technical fields, this will leave some departments unable to function. Even domestic students will suffer. And that's all aside from the long term effect on national competitiveness. I've seen some mention mercantilism, but this isn't even effective as that. True mercantilism would mean doing even more to keep other countries from benefiting from those students' knowledge and labor. This is not mercantilism; it's a very different and almost suicidal kind of nativism.
nickdothutton 6y ago
Some of you may find this quite interesting. https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/Weinstein-GUI_NSF_SG_Complete_INET.pdf https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/Weinstein-GUI_N...
artur_makly 6y ago
Harvard and MIT are suing. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/7/8/harvard-mit-sue-immigration-authorities/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/7/8/harvard-mit-sue-...

280 points by artur_makly 6y ago

I really hope universities can find a loophole around this. Three days of in-class lecture per semester, but allow for three unexcused absences for any reason.

dx87 6y ago
The college I go to uses a loophole to allow military veterans to get the full monetary benefits of attending an in person class, while doing everything online. They don't have attendance requirements, all the material taught in class has to be available online, and no exercises or in class assignments count towards your final grade. That way the school can say you enrolled in an in-person class, and the student gets to decide whether or not they want to show up. Admittedly, the in class instruction normally isn't very good, and maybe 5-10 people still come in after the first few weeks.

pjc50 6y ago

Nicely timed to deport HK students back there.

mc32 6y ago

Key quote: >” Visa requirements for students have always been strict and coming to the US to take online-only courses has been prohibited.” So it’s a reinforcement of policy rather than change although some institutions would like to see accommodation for this kind of circumstance —which is understandable if students came here with the intent to attend in person, but it’s worth noting the the visa requirements have not changed

Loughla 6y ago
Foreign students can only take 1 online class at our institution due to current policy. When we scrambled to move all online during the stay-home orders, one question we didn't have answered was whether or not those students could even stay if we went entirely online. The policy didn't change at all, it's super restrictive. What institutions I'm affiliated with are asking is for temporary flexibility during COVID-19. Specific start and end dates based on periodic review of health measures. And the answer is still a resounding 'no' from any sort of federal representative we can get in touch with. This, honestly, feels like the federal immigration department is trying to punish schools who are more cautious about opening up like nothing is happening. It tastes bad. edit: edited to reflect the inaccuracy as pointed out by PeterisP. SEVIS is overseen by ICE, not the department of education. Our representatives for SEVIS are generally connected to the DoE in some fashion. I didn't realize folks wouldn't know that ICE oversees immigrants, and that the Ed Department isn't responsible for making this policy.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  It's not like any education representative can change immigration policy or grant some exceptions, it's not up to them. If taking online classes means that the students visas become invalid, or if their current visa restrictions mean that it's prohibited for them to be in an online-only program, then that's exactly what it means, and it's wrong to blame schools or education department about it, it's not about education but about immigration policy - the domain of Department of State, Congress, etc.
  - Blahah 6y ago
    Surely every person involved should simply be turning to the people above/before them in the chain of command and saying "this is impossible, we need to be more flexible now". And whoever is blocking that escalation is reasonably part of the problem.
    - grayfaced 6y ago
      Escalating only works when you can reach reason in the higher chain. You can only go to senior leadership with the options and consequences. We have option A or option B, or we do nothing and we have consequence C. When that leader picks consequence C then you're stuck. We have an administration that doesn't value academia or the visa program. So it's no surprise they're willing to sacrifice it in name of "schools must open".
      - Blahah 6y ago
        Firstly, I don't know of any situation where that's true. If your manager is insisting on something impossible or immoral/unethical, you escalate. Escalating doesn't have to be within the organisation. It can be going public, going sideways (to clients/collaborators), or going way up (to investors/funders/government/regulators). Secondly, what I was saying is that whoever is the person that refuses to take it higher - that person is the problem. If you're stuck underneath them, go above them, or go public, or do whatever you need to do to avoid compromising yourself.
    - 6y ago
the_pwner224 6y ago
It's a total dick move by them to enforce it right now. If the student is normally enrolled full time in person and they just have this/next semester online, they shouldn't be required to pack their bags and leave for just one or two semesters. That's very different from the intent of not letting online students physically enter the us for no reason. Already many students were stuck here in may since international travel was restricted by many countries. Doing stupid pointless shit like this has no positive effect.
roywiggins 6y ago
That requirement was waived this spring. They're unwaiving it.[0] Rigid enforcement of rules designed for a world that doesn't exist anymore, and won't for a while, is a deliberate choice and not one that we have to make. The pandemic is an ongoing rolling emergency. Making life worse for people for no good reason may be the default, but that doesn't mean that the people who can waive the rule shouldn't be held responsible when they decide not to. Inaction and action are nearly indistinguishable from the side of the people being affected. [0] See this guidance from March: "Given the extraordinary nature of the COVID-19 emergency, SEVP will allow F-1 and/or M-1 students to temporarily count online classes towards a full course of study in excess of the limits... This temporary provision is only in effect for the duration of the emergency" Absolutely nothing substantive has changed since then, but ICE has apparently changed its mind and- implausibly- decided the emergency is over. It's absurd. https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2020/Coronavirus%20Guidance_3.13.20.pdf https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2...
- gcbw3 6y ago
  The university i'm associated with, because of the pandemic, not only all the international students are having online classes, but the international grad students teaching the classes are giving them online too. And all those grad students on a teaching scholarship were told to remain in the US because their scholarship is tied to being residents of the State for some tax reason or another for the institution. fun times.
  - compscistd 6y ago
    Couldn't they offer a required in-class portion of their degree (INT 5001: "Let's Talk about COVID and being international students for 20 minutes") for all international students where completion is required for their degree but attendance is optional? Effectively, no one physically goes to the class, but it's enough to keep students in the US because it's not an online-only class.
    - mc32 6y ago
      I don’t know if that would work. The whole reason for the on-site requirement is to avoid or clamp down on Visa scams. And a loophole like that is exactly what a scam school would do.
BolexNOLA 6y ago
“It’s the law” is a terrible rationale though. Our values should inform our laws and their interpretation, not the other way around. There is a clear externality forcing this situation and it is clearly more detrimental to force them out of the country than to just make special accommodations/provisions. Pass a bill if that makes it more palatable and set it to have a termination date with the ability to “re-up” if this situation continues. But shrugging and going “them’s the rules” when it suits us and being flexible elsewhere (freelancers getting unemployment benefits, for instance) seems arbitrary and, frankly, capricious.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  Some logic needs to come in too though, what is the point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet? Student visas make good sense, allow people from around the world to come here and get an education which is better or different and have a cultural exchange... but if coming here just gets you the cultural exchange of going to the grocery store and watching lectures online that could be watched from anywhere... what's the point? I personally have a problem with how international students are used as cash cows and then later often as a lower class of intellectual labor in labs (I have heard first hand stories of this happening, more than once). When universities have an ample supply of people willing to do anything in order to get citizenship, the people who don't have that circumstance are pushed out because of the poor conditions enabled by the many people who accept it. Career academia sucks. Grads and post grads are paid little and way overworked chasing after the dream of a rare tenured faculty position.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Yet, they continued to come over and do this. They likely had a reason. Whether its prestige, a cultural experience, available work contacts post-study or whatever. And as for 'lower class intellectual labor', lets talk medical Residents? Years of indentured servitude post-doc. And we consider that reasonable.
  - zasz 6y ago
    Not every international student has a good internet connection at home, and collaborating with students in the US could be extremely different if they come from a very different time zone.
codegeek 6y ago
Technically it may be a reenforcement but Corona Virus has changed quite a few things and it is also a practical fact that a lot of people are stranded and cannot travel to their home countries right now that easily. So you cannot just "enforce" the law and it needs a more balanced approach by the administration. If they don't act according to the current situation, it is not a good thing regardless of what the law is. Immigration is very discretionary when it comes to these types of situations. They can always say "Hey there is this law but considering where we are with Corona, we will give you some flexibility".
morpheuskafka 6y ago
Right, but unlike a designed-to-be-online program, depending on the university/each individual class, many of the classes are not going to be designed with timezone differences in mind, not designed to get through local internet filters, etc. The thinking behind the rules is that there is no need to live in the US to participate in a fully-online program, but this is not applicable to a regular program that is temporarily forced to run online due to the pandemic only. Additionally, this ignores the financial losses (ex costs of breaking leases, selling property, expensive/hard to schedule air travel which may require more legs than usual now, shipping, large currency conversions) caused by a sudden move back. Additionally, there will be costs to get internet access and other necessary materials back home. Some institutions still have not announced their plans, and they can change at any time. These are people who want to and have been living on campus. They are not just taking advantage of the visa to sit in front of a computer screen for four years--so there is no reason they should have to leave. This clearly has no relevance to the initial intent of the policy, and refusing to waive it in this case demonstrates the government's effort to hurt people of other nationalities in any way possible.

hpoe 6y ago

I know this will be very unpleasant and will entail a lot of hardship for a lot of people but I can't help but wonder if in the long term this will help to start reversing the "brain drain" problem that many developing nations are struggling with. They'll still have access to their classes and be able to acquire the requisite skills, but now they'll be building something in their home country not stuck in a middle tier position within the US. Of course not saying that means the policies made are good or bad, I am just curious to the second order effect this will have.

imposterr 6y ago
Maybe, but I think the main problem is that a middle tier position in the US pays a lot more and provides a higher standard of living than what some can expect in their own home countries.
achow 6y ago
The effect would be these students would not opt for these courses. For majority of these students the main attraction is employment in USA, for a small subset experiencing American culture. In absence of both of these there is no reason for students to take online courses from American Universities.
- troydavis 6y ago
  > The effect would be these students would not opt for these courses. For majority of these students the main attraction is employment in USA, for a small subset experiencing American culture. In absence of both of these there is no reason for students to take online courses from American Universities. Keep in mind that this is expected for 1 of at least 4 years of undergraduate, or 1 of 2-5 years of graduate, education. Someone's still going to have plenty of time living in the US and interacting with potential future US colleagues. (I'm accepting at face value your assertion that signalling provided by a degree from a US institution has ~no value. I don't think that's the case, but my comment above makes that question close to moot.)
  - 6y ago

hristov 6y ago

The last thing we need right now is to force a bunch people into international air travel. They should not enforce the policy for classes that have been temporarily moved online due to covid.

the_svd_doctor 6y ago

Original press release is https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-exemptions-nonimmigrant-students-taking-online-courses-during?fbclid=IwAR1q6W8g6uikfadS8eZDZI8ocer-Pv-mxEg5RWGZIwmb6lCu58KRklAgoL8 https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-ex... Key fact: - International student cannot legally attend a 100% online school from the US (with an F or M status). - International student in school with "Hybrid" models (some in person, some online) cannot have a 100% "online semester". The school will need to certify that the student is not taking 100% online classes. - If a Hybrid school moves to a fully online halfway through, the student needs to depart the US (or transfer to another school) This only applies for the student to be legally _within_ the US of course. EDIT: The law already prevented this, basically. Spring and Summer had special exemptions granted by DHS. So this is just a reversal to the "usual policy", which it seems many school expected would not happen (at least not that quickly). My university is scrambling to understand the exact consequences.

simonkafan 6y ago

It's truly remarkable how ignorant the US now acts towards foreign students and talents given that a lot of world class scientists, artists and innovators are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. I hope this will give Europa and Asia the chance to get some of their emigrated talents back.

xixixao 6y ago

What this policy completely misses is that some courses are real-time online, not recorded, and that people live in different timezones across the globe. This is extremely personally harmful to people affected.

Panini_Jones 6y ago
Moreover, some classes use online services like GDocs. GDocs aren't accessible from certain countries.

siraben 6y ago

As an international student myself, it has been a very confusing last few months, and now this. I am fortunate enough to be back in my home country but I know of many others who are stuck in the US due to travel restrictions or financial reasons. Forcing them to leave for a situation they cannot control during a pandemic is cruel. I urge everyone to sign this petition[0] to help international students who are here to pursue higher education in the US, by asking ICE to rescind their decision. [0] https://www.change.org/p/ice-let-international-students-stay https://www.change.org/p/ice-let-international-students-stay

arrayjumper 6y ago

As someone who studied in the US on an F1 visa, I can tell you that this rule has always been in place. The F1 visa was always extremely restrictive whether it was regarding minimum number of in person credits or regarding allowing students to work part time. It seems especially cruel that they'd choose to enforce the rule at a time like this.

verganileonardo 6y ago
I'm in the same position and I agree. The rule makes sense and is there to prevent an exploit on using student visas to move to the US. However, enforcing it during a pandemic is cruel and really reinforces how Trump and his administration are aggressive towards international people - even if we are coming to elite schools and would bring value to the US economy.
the_svd_doctor 6y ago
Exactly. F-1 is already very very restrictive. Enforcing this rule is bad and doesn't take any account any sort of local differences. What if the state close all college campuses ? Sorry, bye bye, go home.
komali2 6y ago
They previously removed the restriction. Stolen from another comment: > See this guidance from March: "Given the extraordinary nature of the COVID-19 emergency, SEVP will allow F-1 and/or M-1 students to temporarily count online classes towards a full course of study in excess of the limits... This temporary provision is only in effect for the duration of the emergency" Absolutely nothing substantive has changed since then, but ICE has apparently changed its mind. https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2.. https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2....

LockAndLol 6y ago

Well it makes sense... If you done actually have to be in the country to take the courses, then your stay is optional. For students that cannot go back due to travel restrictions or that have other obligations in the country, it would make sense to let them stay. Of course if they come from countries that do not possess the facilities necessary to access online content, that would put some students in quite a pickle. Maybe those could also be treated in a special manner, but I doubt that many would be affected. Maybe the article wasn't explicit enough, but I'm not quite seeing the problem with this decision. Maybe the manner of communication?

the_svd_doctor 6y ago
It's because there is no "case by case" decision or any nuance. There is no "treated in a special manner". If you can't follow your classes in person, you have to leave. If you don't, you probably won't be deported per so, but in the future, any benefits (like employment) can/will be denied.
humanistbot 6y ago
> For students that cannot go back due to travel restrictions or that have other obligations in the country, it would make sense to let them stay. These students will not be allowed to stay.

humanistbot 6y ago

All of those students who came to the US to try to get an education will remember this for the rest of their lives. When all of those future scientists, business leaders, journalists, politicians, artists, and so on think about the US, they will think back to how the US treated them at a time of global crisis.

atoav 6y ago

The most impotant part of studying is often the interaction with peers (IMO). This is very hard to replicate digitally.

dangoor 6y ago

In an ideal world, this is where the legislature steps in and passes a law that allows these students to stay for the 2020-21 school year, rather than assuming the executive branch just selectively continues non-enforcement of this requirement. If you're a US citizen, you can contact your representative/senators offices and ask them to deal with this.

dopamean 6y ago

Seems like bs to me. If you're on the other side of the planet you're expected to be online at 3am for lectures and exams? Ridiculous.

thehappypm 6y ago
You’ve clearly never taken an online class. Lectures are recorded, exams are usually flexible open windows
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  My wife's online classes are real-time. She logs in at lecture time, asks questions with the other students. Same with section. We're talking University experience here, which is all about engagement.
- burkaman 6y ago
  This is true for a 300-person Physics 101 lecture, but many many classes are discussion-based and don't work asynchronously. Professors are doing their best to modify stuff for this situation, but it's very hard to take something that's been taught the same way for 20 years and make up something new on the fly.
- paxys 6y ago
  You clearly have no idea how universities are operating during covid. Most online classes are real-time and collaborative.
- msbarnett 6y ago
  My wife was taking a university course that was forced online last semester due to COVID-19. It was completely real-time, 0% recorded.
- dopamean 6y ago
  My wife is in a masters program right now and all the lectures are live.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago

stormdennis 6y ago

$50,000 a year for a Harvard undergraduate course exclusive of accommodation and food. Sounds like there's a lot of fat that could be trimmed. Sounds immoral in fact.

whalesalad 6y ago
It's not immoral, it's business. Harvard has presented a product and you are free to take it or leave it. What is unfortuntate though is that we've been conditioned as a society to believe that a higher education is the most valuable thing you could ever earn.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  In France the students are paid to go to the best schools.
- augustt 6y ago
  So, still immoral. It's gatekeeping upwards mobility with absurd prices.
  - conanbatt 6y ago
    Its a private service, they don't sell "justice"
    - stormdennis 6y ago
      It's a private service. Lots of institutions used to be private until government realized that they were effectively States within States and nationalised them in the interests of the public good
  - whalesalad 6y ago
    You're missing the entire point of my comment - college is antiquated.
    - 6y ago

ralmidani 6y ago

Instructors want to reduce their risk of exposure, which is understandable. But serving that interest also means a lot of international students will lose their visas. Would limiting seats in class to just international students be a good way to reconcile both parties' interests? Edit: this would raise issues of fairness and equal treatment (a lot of students, especially those not accustomed to remote learning, would feel cheated). There probably is no perfect solution.

st1ck 6y ago
With in-person classes, instructors (and students, and everyone) will get infected because of how the virus works, and there is not that much one can do about it until vaccine or herd immunity is developed. Students will lose their visas because of bureaucratic BS which can be changed anytime, but probably won't be because of the current political climate. So, one concern is grounded in nature, another in bureaucracy, I don't think there is much of reconciliation. Although I agree completely that students are not getting what they paid for (if they paid for in-person classes).

HarryHirsch 6y ago

The missing perspective is that there are visa mills just as there are diploma mills, and that enforcement from both Immigration and Customs and Department of Education is piss-weak. They should have gotten on top of these institutions long ago, but they wouldn't, so here we are. There is Georgia Tech, but there is also the College of Northern Virginia. Here is some background: https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Education-Damage-Our-Immigration-System https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Education-Damage-Our-Imm...

jhpriestley 6y ago
The missing context on your comment is that the CIS is a hate group according to the SPLC, which is among other heinous things in favor of the family separation policy, a crime against humanity.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  CIS is a hate group That's embarrassing. But even so, if you don't deal with known abuses you get groups like this, so it's imperative on the government to get ahead of the crazy train.
- x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
  SPLC is a joke nowadays. They scoop up all sorts of names and label them hatemongers. It takes a lawsuit to get them to recant: [1] 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/maajid-nawaz-v-splc/562646/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/maajid-...
  - jhpriestley 6y ago
    If you think that one high-profile mistake makes them "a joke" then you might not be aware of how much work SPLC does. For example, here is their page on CIS, with hundreds of citations and direct quotes https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/center-immigration-studies https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou...

curiousllama 6y ago

This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (already a 1 in 3 shot), H1B transfers, and others in the lurch. (3) RFEs (a first step to visa denials) have been on a steep rise. As a result, not only are we kicking people out, but international applications to US schools have absolutely collapsed; fewer people are even trying. The US is actively abandoning its goal of being the land of opportunity, and it makes me sad.

ISL 6y ago
Vote.
- xtreme 6y ago
  Unfortunately, Democrats don't have a great track record of passing pro skilled immigration bills either. In 2009-2010, when Democrats controlled the house and the senate as well as the presidency, they didn't bring in a single major immigration reform bill [1]. The DREAM act for childhood arrivals didn't pass the senate, and DACA was later passed through executive order in 2012. And right now some Democrats continue to oppose skilled immigration claiming that it is "racist" [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress#Major_legislation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress#M... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/22/trump-wants-skilled-immigrants-is-that-because-economics-or-coded-way-reject-latinos/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/22/trump-wan...
  - BolexNOLA 6y ago
    The immigration debate looked very different ten years ago. I’m not sure we should expect the same policies.
three_seagrass 6y ago

ISL 6y ago

I'm expecting universities to begin to encourage international students to sign up for in-person lab classes to bypass this rule. Are any HN'ers aware of policies emerging to this effect? I expect there to be some back-and-forth between educational institutions and the government on this one.

RHSeeger 6y ago
I had a similar first thought. A 0 credit, single class (1 hour per semester), in-person lab classes would reduce the 100% online to ... not. I wonder if there's rules in place to prevent this.

cpufry 6y ago

vote plz tnx

thehappypm 6y ago

Well, duh. If you could get a student visa just by enrolling in a US-based online class, that would be quite the loophole for immigration.

elchin 6y ago

This is extra horrible for European, Asian and African students, due to timezones.

conanbatt 6y ago

I think this is done on purpose but not as an immigration move. Its a play against universities, a political enemy of Trump. At the same time this is happening, they are waiving the degree requirement for federal employment: a nice little monopoly rent universities had, as well as the immigration one. Americans might not appreciate this but not only colleges subsist on international students: they subsist on them requiring degrees for visas and to get preferential visa treatment. It's a path to residency. I would have much preferred that there was a semblance of Rule of Law, and it would be more like discounting college degrees entirely for immigration and remove special visa privileges for students, but this gov is stupidly against immigration.

sg47 6y ago
Satya Nadella and Sundar Pichai came through this route. It's not a degree for visa like you think it is.

jb775 6y ago

International students should be allowed to stay as long as they're full-time, and are accepted into an accredited university with the intention of attending in person. I guess the gray area here is that colleges, many of them being for-profit entities, are facing big drops in enrollment and can essentially sell US citizenship in exchange for tuition payments. Once an online course system is set up, the only cost is generating new user credentials.

the_svd_doctor 6y ago
> "sell US citizenship" This is a big overstatement. There are many far from trivial steps between being a F/M student and getting citizenship. It certainly is a way for people to start they "immigration journey" to the US, though, obviously.
filoleg 6y ago
> International students should be allowed to stay as long as they're full-time, and are accepted into an accredited university with the intention of attending in person. Luckily, that's exactly what these new "rules" allow for (check the source material, not just news coverage of it; the source material is written in a pretty plain and easy to understand language, not walls of legalese). You are only getting kicked out if your courseload is fully online or if you don't take enough classes to qualify for a full-time student status. Otherwise, you are good.
jimbokun 6y ago
Probably more accurate to say "can essentially sell US visas in exchange for tuition payments".
- unishark 6y ago
  And that includes an addition year (or two years of STEM) of work visa after graduation. Plus something like 6 months of CPT in summers.
gnulinux 6y ago
Going from a student with F visa to Green Card is a >10 year adventure with all sorts of problems and complex legal framework. Not to mention, it's practically impossible for some majors, in particular if your major does not apply to OPT STEM extension, it's very hard to get H1B as you have 1 chance to be picked in lottery. This "universities sell US citizenship" thing is plain misinformation.

snackematician 6y ago

This is yet another attack against immigrant students as noted in sibling comments. But it is also an attempt to force universities to open in the Fall despite the dangers of doing so. Many universities depend on the tuition from foreign students. The timing shows this (right after Harvard announced plans to go online), as well as Trump's tweets that schools must open in Fall.

nine_zeros 6y ago

International folks need to realize that life is too precious. You don't want to spend time with bureaucracy and threat of deportation while getting education and pursuing productive careers. America of the past is gone. It's rapidly deteriorating. Save your lives and don't enter into any educational or business arrangement with America.

ausjke 6y ago

Learn from the immigration in Canada is a good idea. USA immigration system needs reform. No free welfare for anyone who is able to work. For those who supports excessive welfare, set a donation page for them to put their money where their mouth is, tax deduction is fine with me though considering they actually did something instead of just talking the talk or expecting others do what they talk. Most importantly, better the education system here first, no more trophy generation, no more AA for college admission, and reward STEM kids instead of treating them as nerds in school. Until then, you have to depend on H1B/F1 to stay ahead, which should only be a temporary fix.

yizhang7210 6y ago

I'm genuine curious what economic benefits this brings. With the very limited economics I've learned, most students are net spenders in the country, them being here will only pour more money in. Economically, how does stopping them coming in help anyone?

maxchisto 6y ago
Driving down aggregate demand for higher education can help bring down the cost (how effectively would depend on the elasticity of supply, which I'm not sure about). Fresh grads coming out of college with less debt should lead to higher aggregate spending in other sectors.
- yizhang7210 6y ago
  This is interesting. But this sounds like a long term effect right? Presumably universities aren't lowering tuitions just because of this semester?
  - maxchisto 6y ago
    Yeah, long term. Also, idk if that was the intention or if it will work. I just tried to think of any theoretical benefits. Not shure what universities are doing. There are a lot of them. So far I've heard that Harvard will continue charging the same while pushing big chunk of students online. You're right about benefits of foriegn capital flowing into US through international students. Net result can very well be negative.
bialpio 6y ago
It helps politicians to get elected. Immigrants don't vote (they can't), citizens with anti-immigrant sentiments do.
- yizhang7210 6y ago
  I mean this is obviously part of the consideration. But I'm curious about rational economic gains if there're any.

paganel 6y ago

On the plus side, maybe this will help with the talent brain affecting the countries from where those students come. If it matters I live in a country heavily affected by emigration.

blue11 6y ago

The whole thing is optimized for maximum cruelty, but the suggestion that students should transfer to another school that has in-person classes is just mockery. In normal times transferring to another college is a process that takes 9-10 months. The admission rate for transfer applications is really low. And that's just for domestic transfer students. It is not even theoretically possible to transfer to another school in a couple of months. Not to mention that the F-1 student visa and the I-20 form needed to obtain such a visa are for a specific school only, so international students would also have to go back to their home countries and obtain new visas.

thefrozenone 6y ago

To add a bit of color: * One of my friends went to live with her parents after her OPT expired. She was supposed to enroll in an M.S. in August, but due to COVID, the embassies in her country were shut down. While her university is hybrid, she chose to stay in her home country to take the online-only courses, which are (fortunately) discounted. * My sister, who is trying to renew her F-1 and has no other status options, is hoping that her school doesn't go online. * My mom, an immunocompromised professor, is asking the university for an exemption to their in-person requirement. The university said no. The word around is that a financial analyst explained to administration that if people don't have the "campus experience" and therefore stop paying for housing/dining halls, the university would face insolvency within 2 semesters. All in all, it seems like a way to pressure universities to open. They cannot reasonably close and lose like 5-10% more of their revenue by losing all international students, especially if they haven't figured out online course delivery to recoup some fees from F-1s.

krnsll 6y ago
The point about your mom (and more broadly older faculty) is important. I hope it works out for her. Vulnerable faculty will likely be forced to hold "in-person" lectures (ergo worsening their risk profiles) for the universities to create quasi-in-person courses: in that, videos will still be recorded and students probably won't show up but, on paper, it wouldn't be classified as an online course. This would likely be coupled with batch-scheduled exams being the only occasion the students need to show up in person for (or perhaps, those too are obviated via take-home exams?). This is essentially identical to some large enrollment, advanced CS theory courses I've taken.

akerro 6y ago

and they will have to pay full price tuition, what a deal!

sm0ss117 6y ago

Just another step on the way to the US becoming a pariah state. I'm really not looking forward to the next few years here. While electing a Democratic government might be able to reverse some of the policies, check out what the senate is doing to the judicial branch to see why that might not be enough, it won't return the trust or reputation of the US. The nativist, anti-intellectual, and outright fascist elements of the US have gone from a vocal minority to a genuine force in American politics thanks to the Senate. While they still are a minority of the population, probably 20% if you cast the absolute widest net possible, due to gerrymandering, 2 Senators per state, lifetime judicial appointments, the electoral college, and extreme voter suppression they are in charge of huge swaths of the government. It's gonna be a wild ride.

dang 6y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23755301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23755301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23753182

jb775 6y ago
@dang - Flagging as [dupe] shouldn't remove an article from the HN front page, especially when none of the other articles are actively on the front page. Also, all [dupe] article comments should be merged and visible under each separate [dupe] article, so organic user dialogue isn't split up and minimized.
- dang 6y ago
  Front page space is the scarcest resource on HN [1]. If we didn't remove dupes, the site would be Dupes R Us. Also, since the idea of HN is to avoid repetition [2], there wouldn't be anyone left here because readers would mutiny. We commonly merge duplicate threads, but we don't catch them all. In the case of a sensational story like this one, where there's an endless supply of comments and the threads are more or less interchangeable, it's perhaps less important. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20scarce&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20repetition&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
  - kerneltime 6y ago
    Wow! no sign of this or any other thread from the front page..
deleted 6y ago
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notacoward 6y ago

My academic friends are going absolutely bananas over this. Particularly at the graduate level, and particularly in technical fields, this will leave some departments unable to function. Even domestic students will suffer. And that's all aside from the long term effect on national competitiveness. I've seen some mention mercantilism, but this isn't even effective as that. True mercantilism would mean doing even more to keep other countries from benefiting from those students' knowledge and labor. This is not mercantilism; it's a very different and almost suicidal kind of nativism.

nickdothutton 6y ago

Some of you may find this quite interesting. https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/Weinstein-GUI_NSF_SG_Complete_INET.pdf https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/Weinstein-GUI_N...

artur_makly 6y ago

Harvard and MIT are suing. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/7/8/harvard-mit-sue-immigration-authorities/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/7/8/harvard-mit-sue-...