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Why do Russians smile so little (and Americans so much?)
- bluekeybox 16y agoWhat does this have to do with startups and programming?
- thamer 16y agohttp://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
- coderdude 16y agoThis guideline applied when this site was populated mostly by hacker entrepreneurs. There have been polls in the past that revealed the HN userbase is now comprised of mostly "non-hackers." As this site has become more popular it stands to reason that we're in the minority now as there simply aren't that many people who identify as hackers (let alone entrepreneurs). If you reduce it further to "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" then you open the gates to anything. That is why we have stories about smiling in Russia on the front page.
- riffic 16y agomy favorite types of hn comments are ones like these. upvoted!
- tejaswiy 16y agoActually, I've experienced something similar when moving from India to the US. In India, you just walk into a store, and say I need x, y, z and get out of the store unless you know the owner of the store personally (in which case, the transaction differs completely and you don't get to the point before chatting about the weather, how the respective families are doing and complaining about the roads/traffic or some such thing). Compare that to the US, where a coffee shop like Dunkin' handles like a thousand people every day during rush hour and people still mechanically say, "Hi, How are you doing? What can I get for you today?" and it's inevitably met with "Good, how are you? and I'll get x, y, z..". I'll admit to finding that transaction incredibly dishonest when I came here first, to the point that I was actually complaining about it to people. I mean, does the person at the counter really care as to how I was doing? I'm used to it now, it's almost become an instinct, but still cringe a bit when I catch myself doing it involuntarily. Old habits, etc. I guess.
- mahmud 16y agoI was a barista at Starbucks and I meant every word of my greetings. The 5 seconds you make eye contact with someone and say hi to them are vital for gathering your senses, and starting this interaction a new. If you didn't say "hi, how are you", asshole clients would rub off on you and you would smear that bad vibe on all subsequent clients. However, when you greet someone, and they greet you back warmly, crap-vibes get washed away and you get good energies. I used to look forward to my favorite clients; it's like stones in a puddle, you jump from one to the next to get to where you're going. Same with good people, they help you go through the day. So start the day positively, greet everyone cheerfully, serve loyally and enjoy yourself; the 8 hours pass QUICKLY.
- tejaswiy 16y agoInteresting, never looked at it from that perspective. Thanks!
- alnayyir 16y agoI worked some pretty bad jobs when I was a kid, similar to his experience at Starbucks, he's totally right about the nice people really getting you through your day.
- sunjain 16y agoThis is probably the best explanation of the effectiveness of the customary greeting extended even to strangers in US. It may sound mechanical but it does serves an important purpose.
- andos 16y agoGreat observation! It's really up to us to imbue those apparently automatic gestures with some meaning. And maybe it shows when we do. I can see how sincerely greeting a customer could help "reset" the mood back to positive.
- hoag 16y agoIt seems to me that French culture finds a pretty happy medium between the two extremes: you aren't expected to engage in a "full" conversation asking how the other's day is, but a simple "bonjour monsieur/madame" and "merci monsieur/madame, au revoir" is more than sufficient. To me this is the optimal point between being sincere and being socially cordial with a stranger, especially one whose shop you have just entered to do business.
- bpodgursky 16y ago"The American smile does not mean anything really. Many Russians take the American smile as strange and artificial. " On the other hand, by defining the default behavior as "smile", if somebody looks unhappy, you can actually tell that something is wrong. When the default expression is "gloom", it's impossible to separate "default gloom" from "actually unhappy."
- Qz 16y agoExcept when the unhappy people are so used to smiling that they just force a smile because that's what's socially acceptable. Default expressions are two-faced.
- weaksauce 16y agoIt's harder to fake a genuine smile though and a perceptive person will be able to pick up on it usually.
- socksy 16y agoHow many social smiles are actually genuine?
- forensic 16y agoLots. It's only chronically negative people who believe that most smiles are false. Some people just enjoy being alive and so they smile. Even polite smiles are still polite and show concern for the emotions of the other. When Russians glower at me and talk in their cynical, biting tone I feel as if they don't care about me or my feelings and aren't interested in a positive emotional exchange. Russians suck all the life out of rooms with their frowns and sarcasm.
- socksy 16y agoI don't see why you have to be chronically negative to believe that a smile that isn't genuine is necessarily "false". When referring to a genuine smile, we usually refer to a Duchenne smile[1] — one in which the muscles around the eyes also crease. Just because a smile isn't on the spot genuine doesn't mean it's false, as the thought behind it can still be there. But it's also important to note that this is an expectation of your culture — it's not as obvious to me that smiling all the time is necessarily a "happiness" thing. Surely you must be aware of the stereotypes that are held by other cultures of Americans? The fact that you see Russians as people who suck the life out of the room, just suggests to me that you are projecting your expectations of societal norms on other societies — where they don't necessarily fit. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile#Duchenne_smile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile#Duchenne_smile
- dimitar 16y agoI remember here (in Bulgaria) 10 years ago storekeepers and taxi drivers wouldn't even say hello or goodbye or thank you. In fact if there was any communication it would be probably be rude. Now, everyone says hello, thanks even smiles sometimes. It is much more pleasant and appears natural. And I guess people have learned that manners sell.
- hoag 16y agoWhen I visited Greece several years ago, I remember reading a similar "warning" in many Greek travel guide books: that men, especially, should not smile too frequently and without reason, because it makes you look weak, immature, childish, shy, etc. As one who is a perpetually happy and upbeat person, I found it remarkably hard to follow this admonition.
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoI'm not calling you a liar but what you say runs counter to the advice of The Eagles who sang : [i]Just put that monster smile on them rosy cheeks 'Cause the Greeks don't want no freaks [/i]
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoIt's a line from a song for God's sake
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoOk so my first comment could be downvoted because people think I'm not funny. My subsequent comment was just to clarify that the first comment was not anything personal against anyone. So why was that downvoted? An explanation from the downvoter would be nice
- prodigal_erik 16y agoI suspect it's due to this portion of http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: > Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoThanks for the explanation, I appreciate it
- m0nastic 16y agoOne of my neighbors is a diplomat for the Russian Embassy, and we talk a lot (he likes that it lets him practice English, and I like to hear his perspective on things; not to mention he tells incredibly interesting stories about commanding Russian destroyers). He told me once that the biggest difference he saw so far between Russians and American's is that if you ask an average Russian if they can do something, they'll say something like "Probably not, but I'll do my best.", whereas if you ask an average American, they'll say "Absolutely, I'm great at this." irrespective of their actual abilities. That's a pretty broad generalization, but I think there's definitely a cultural difference between a more cynical Russian culture and a more optimistic American one.
- samtp 16y agoWhile it doesn't apply universally, a good manta I've heard for business is "under promise, over perform". Fits well with the Russian outlook
- koenigdavidmj 16y agoScotty's Law? (If you think something takes N units time, say it takes 3N units, so that you look brilliant when it takes 2N units)
- TheAmazingIdiot 16y agoUnfortunately that's our culture at work. People believe when you can do "Anything" because that idea of empowerment is ingrained here. Somebody who questions their own skill isn't good because they don't believe it. I'm a Hoosier, and I see it here all the time. You have to look like that it's not a problem whatsoever. Admitting ignorance on part of a given topic is seen as sheer stupidity. It's like a job position that I interviewed for. The District manager asked a weird situational question. I don't remember the particulars, but it was something that was pretty much 0% chance of happening. I said that I would not have a clue how to handle it on paper, but I would know if it actually occurred. Their response was that "It was not the answer we were looking for".
- 16y ago
- timurlenk 16y agoWhile the article is just a bit superficial the smiling issue applies to most if not all east european countries. Indeed, east europeans will mostly have a 'neutral' facial expression which is interpreted by most westerners as a frown. It's not a frown, it's just neutral. East europeans will smile for a good reason and will not hesitate to break in to a laughter if the situation is funny enough. However, walking about smiling for no reason is indeed considered the attribute of mad men. For example in the romanian language 'vesel' means happy but it can also mean mad, disturbed, absent minded or drunk if put in a certain context. Not smiling can be an impediment if doing business in the western culture but east europeans eventually get it.
- raquo 16y ago> if you smile, those people will take it as an insult The article is well-balanced except for this. In Russia, a smile is not frowned upon, as this may imply, it's just not on by default. Being a Russian, I just don't feel obliged to keep a smile on my face for politeness or whatever, but it doesn't mean that it's harder to break the ice with me than with anyone else.
- anghyflawn 16y agoI agree. I grew up in Moscow, have lived in Norway for some time now and (I think) picked up the friendlier attitude - but I've never experienced that others are somehow uncomfortable with me smiling or whatever when I'm back. (I think this is important because a lot of the stereotypes come down not to the smile per se, but to the fact that people maybe be more self-conscious about talking to a foreigner or similar.)
- scotty79 16y agoIt's pretty much the same in Poland. http://wulffmorgenthaler.com/strip/2009/09/15/ http://wulffmorgenthaler.com/strip/2009/09/15/ It changes slightly now with younger people and wealth but still after comming back to Poland after few months in Italy I was amazed how gray it was here. How washed up were colours of peoples clothes and how they matched their facial expressions. Being in public space in Poland seems to be about blending into neutral grayness not broadcasting yourself into the public space in best possible light. Probably we inherited this from years of communism when being noticed could get you in trouble and from years of transition to capitalism when displaing your well being could get you robbed.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- nikcub 16y ago50+ years of living under dreary communism can do that to you. I see the same throughout Eastern Europe. Some countries came out of it better than others.
- zwischenzug 16y agoStalin smiled quite a bit, if memory serves.
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoYes but he wasn't Russian ;)
- shortlived 16y agoGeorgians are some of the most hospitable people on this planet.
- wallflower 16y ago"Fly the Friendly Skies" -United Airlines motto until 1996 "Multiple regression revealed r_=.135 for ‘Q20 The crew gives real, friendly smiles’. This may indicate that whilst real, friendly smiles contribute to an overall positive perception of ‘Expressive Display’ they have a small, direct influence on overall satisfaction... The findings have shown that it is possible to quantify the effects of 'real' smiles on service satisfaction, even though, in this case is, it is rather small. There is a strong relationship between 'real' smiles and the perception of genuine care for the consumer." -Measuring the Value of a 'Real' Smile in Service Providers’ Expressive Display: Evidence from the Airline Industry
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoMy guesses : 1: America is a nation of immigrants and the descendants of immigrants. People who emigrate from their home country tend to be more likely to be of an optimistic nature (or manic depessive.) 2: Russia's unfortunate history must make for a traumatised psyche in the population as a whole. By contrast America's has been one success after another.
- spektom 16y agoThere's a proverb in Russian: "laugh without a reason is a sign of foolishness". I don't know where this saying came from, but it's broadly accepted to tell it to anyone who smiles. I was always told this in school, since I smiled a lot. And I'm happy it hasn't had any affect on me :-)
- deepwalker 16y agoIts not proverb, its teasing rhyme. And this is piece of journalista shit. All much much simpler - you just need not to smile in soviet country. But now we come to shiny capitalistic future, and people learn to smile to their clients :)
- zavulon 16y agoI'm Russian-American and visit Russia every few years or so. The first time I went back, I remember getting on the Aeroflot plane, and finding out a blanket was missing (on an 8 hour flight, a necessity). I called the stewardess over and said, with an ear-to-ear American smile "Hi, it looks like I don't have a blanket, could you please get me one?" She gave me a nasty look, and said "No". Then she turned around and walked away. And that's when I realized I'm back home already.
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoYou should try Ryanair sometime
- arethuza 16y agoI'm pretty sure Ryanair charges £5 for a nasty look.
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoWow! I must be invisible
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoOf course it's possible she misunderstood you...
- zavulon 16y agoI was speaking Russian to her ...
- VB6_Foreverr 16y agoYou don't have double entendres in Russian then?
- michaelpinto 16y agoNew Yorkers don't smile! (unless nobody is looking)
- mshron 16y agoWe do and we don't. Knowing how to look closed off is very helpful for dealing with people trying to hand you things, but smiling at wait staff has always seemed to help me. Then again, very few people I interact with in New York are actually originally from New York, so I suppose it's hard to get a clean signal on how "New Yorkers" behave.
- michaelpinto 16y agoThe wait staff are being nice to you because they think you're a tourist! ; D
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- rdtsc 16y agoA couple of observations: * A lot of business in Eastern Europe have recently learned the value of good customer service. Many employers require that their workers smile _and_ behave politely. When there is a choice between 2 grocery stores, I noticed my mother, would rather pay a little more and go further to the store where they are polite and smile rather than the one were they frown and throw the change back at you without even making eye contact. * A lot of the perception of "gloomy" Soviet people come from pictures people see. I lived half of my life here and half in ex-Soviet Union. Even when I show pictures of our family having fun (usually a picnic in the woods, making kabobs, playing badminton) Americans are surprised and ask "How come nobody is smiling? is it because life was so hard for you?" -- now that question always makes me smile (pun intended). They see us together obviously having fun, but because we don't smile at the camera, they assume we were suffering. * I think there is often a confusion between "smiling" and "acting politely". Both are orthogonal. I think a forced smiling is a little disturbing, as it can be detected as such. However, I would rather take a polite and courteous attitude rather than smiling. * As others pointed out, smiling actually ends up affecting the mood and makes the person feel and act happier. So in this case a force smile ends up becoming a genuine smile. * In some cultures (Asian I think, anyone have a reference? ) laughter and smiling can be a sign of fear. I remember hearing about groups of civilians being slaughtered because they responded with laughter at their captors (Western soldiers). That laugher was perceived as mockery which enraged the soldiers. So it seems there are multiple interpretations for smiling depending on the cultural background.
- Nick_C 16y ago> In some cultures (Asian I think, anyone have a reference? ) laughter and smiling can be a sign of fear. I remember Australians were outraged when one of the Bali bombers was shown in court laughing and smiling as the charges were read out. Later, various commentators said that, for Javanese, smiling in public didn't necessarily mean someone was happy or joyous, but was nervous or stressed. I don't know how widespread that is in the rest of Asia, though.
- varjag 16y agoProtip from a native: don't smile in former USSR when dealing with service or authorities. A smile is perceived as weakness and an invitation to pwn you over.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- danking00 16y agoI love meeting new people. Smiling is like saying "Hey there! I'm So and So, how are you? Tell me about yourself!"
- Unosolo 16y agoIn no particular order: - In Russia when they ask: "how are you" they actually expect a genuine and extended answer. - Smiles are scarce and reserved for inner social circle only. - Men act toward any strangers as if they expected to be assaulted at any moment. - Everyone and especially women dress up most of the time. - When paying for goods or services change is never given straight into the palm of your hand, it's always placed into a little plate or stand instead. As if the seller is scared of any bodily contact. - Once the communication barriers are broken and you enter the inner social circle Russian hospitality is genuine and exceeds by far any Western standards.
- gruseom 16y agoYour last point is good and applies to more than Russians (though it accurately describes my experience with Russians too). I've noticed it to a lesser extent (everything is to a lesser extent compared with Russians) in East coast vs. West coast Americans. In California people are friendlier on the surface but harder to really get to know. In New York the surfaces are ruder but once you're accepted as not a stranger the interactions are warmer and more satisfying. Somewhat related, the late cartoonist Callahan had a classic called "The Difference Between New York and LA". In one panel, labeled LA, was a guy saying "Have a nice day" and thinking "Fuck you." In the opposite panel, labeled New York, was a guy saying "Fuck you" and thinking "Have a nice day".
- grishick 16y agoOnce, a co-worker told me post-factum that the biggest hesitation about hiring me was that I didn't look excited enough. Luckily for me it's a known stereotype and there was someone who said "he is just Russian, they are all like that". It took me a few years to get used to the American smile, and then couple more years to get used to the meaningless "how are you?". What I still cannot get used to though is the "stranger nod". Every time you look at an American, they nod at you and say "how are you", even a stranger in a shopping mall. Once, when I was visiting Moscow, I tried looking at a stranger and nodding. The most friendly reaction of a Muscovite was a confused look, the least friendly almost got me into a fight. Maybe it is just me being "Russian", but to me this nod and the meaningless "how are you", and the protective smile mean the same as a Muscovite's angry "what do you want?"
- bourdine 16y agoI am Russian, and it's true - we smile less. This is typical of our culture, and this is one of the reasons why people travel - look at other people's culture. I think, if the world in one second was the same, the journey would become less popular. There is nothing wrong with what we smile a little less. I think in the future, when a society reaches the heights and the war will leave in the past, the country will raise the traditions of his people for what would once again make them popular.
- daimyoyo 16y agoI'm not Russian but I have the same reaction to people smiling without reason. There are few things that annoy me more than someone putting on a fake smile. Especially in customer service. Bank tellers seem to be the worst. "Hi! Nice shirt! How are you today?" You don't care how I am today. Stop talking and process my transaction.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- bane 16y agoIn the early 90's I had the good fortune to participate in an exchange program with some kids from Yekaterinburg. I got to spend a little while in Moscow and the summer out in the Urals. It was a fantastic educational experience I draw on to this day. One key takeaway that my exchange group all agreed on, in public, Russians will just as soon run you over with their car as smile, but once you get inside a close social circle, Russians are easily as warm, and probably more hospitable than any American -- full of warmth and great humor. Many laughs were to be had around the dinner table in a little Soviet-Era flat, drinking Vodka, eating, singing and dancing and telling tall-tales.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- mman 16y agoMy two cents as an American: fake smiling and fake tone of voice are equally annoying, apparent, and dishonest. It creates a really unpleasant feeling to see people expressing themselves in a way that's inconsistent with their current feelings. It's logical to be wary of the person. Who knows if they might deceive you in other ways? /me purchases a one way ticket to Russia.
- mman 16y agoSorry, i meant to deliver that last line with a superfluous emoticon. =).
- cageface 16y agoI'm in Vietnam right now which is currently a very popular destination spot for Russians. There are far more Russian tourists here in Nha Trang than there are of any other nationality. Yet almost every Vietnamese I've talked to seems indifferent at best to them. Unlike the generally easy-going and jovial Aussies and Brits all over SE Asia, the Russians always seem gruff and taciturn. Maybe it's just a surface difference but it affects the response they get from other cultures.
- jarek 16y agoSure is a lot of ethnocentrism in these comments :)
- bluishgreen 16y agoWere Americans always smiling? These pictures from before WW2 seem to indicate otherwise. http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/07/26/captured-america-in-color-from-1939-1943/2363/ http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/07/26/captured-ame... It might be because they were in a depression, but look at picture 13, that situation almost calls for a smile. So the most likely scenario seems to be the smiling is a relatively new cultural thing.
- obiterdictum 16y agoI'll throw in an unsubstantiated hypothesis that this happened with popularization of Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People".
- harshpotatoes 16y agoAs a continuation on the idea that they were in a depression, but also remember that picture 13 is located in Oklahoma and a mere six years earlier they were probably experiencing the dust bowl.
- trurl123 16y agoThat's wrong: many Russian tourists traveling to Thailand still feel uncomfortable about this country. Thailand is known as a country of a thousand smiles. Many Russians love Thailand and I don't hear about feel uncomfortable.
- kds 16y agoFrom the comments below the article: "I am an American and I do smile a lot. I am happy, content, and armed. I do not fear strangers, and I smile because I am happy to share my joy with you." He-he... A perfect example of neurotic behavior. And fearing no strangers and being armed is something in the same league with being happy and content - that's really an awesome indicator for an open and friendly culture ;)
- doublez 16y agoPpl, this is a low-fi piece journalistic trolling - the "subject matter" was growing a beard when I was a Moscow high school senior 20 years ago :). Leaving aside the Russian tendency to take ill-informed pot shots at Americans (a national past time), cultural anthropology is an actual discipline with actual data to peruse - _lots_ of it - if you're interested. Curiosities of cultural interaction go far wider than the "happy fool/gloomy fool" non-dilemma here. ;)