4 ms·

I really liked how you combined “knee-jerk reaction”, “oh no, they’re not racists, they just look like racists and behave like racists, but that’s just because

by allarm 6y ago

I really liked how you combined “knee-jerk reaction”, “oh no, they’re not racists, they just look like racists and behave like racists, but that’s just because they were deeply traumatized” and “I don’t have anything in common with those racists”. A really enjoyable attempt to seat on two seats. The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in their minds between the race and the name of the color. They’re not inherently racist so to speak, it’s a very American thing, that Americans tend to forget quite often. When I think of a blacklist I imagine a list colored black, not the people of color and all the history behind it. That’s exactly why I believe these renaming attempts to be astoundingly stupid, please don’t involve the Soviet trauma bs in that.

watwut 6y ago
> The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in their minds between the race and the name of the color. The first part is true, second part is not. The people from Eastern block are well aware of the races and do have opinions about which race is how, up to certain races being inferior. The blacklist as word is not associated with race. But they will make quick judgements about what the words and events and historical characters should mean for black or white Americans. That typically with zero knowledge of American history and race relations. You will also see people assuming native Americans history is what the movie "Winnetou" shows. For example, when there is conflict about things like Africans complaining about not getting proper scientific attribution, you can count on eastern European people assuming African is crazy and don't deserve that.
- allarm 6y ago
  Well, I’m not saying that they’re not aware of the races per se. I’m saying that “black” for them means the name of the color, again, not the racial reference. That’s why renaming blacklist/whitelist things is a very american-centric thing, which looks ridiculous to the most of the world outside Americas.
  - watwut 6y ago
    So, Americans rename things in American software or writing because of what those words mean to them in their own native language. Then people who have that language as second and dont really know wtf is going on ridicule them and complain about that being american-centric? When Americans do the same, they are rightfully labeled as arrogant. It is same arrogance when Eastern Europeans do it.
    - blacklion 6y ago
      It is not so simple, as "arrogance". First, it is international software. OSS is world-wide and international, not American one. Second, people for whom English is second language, really know that it is called "censorship", no matter is intentions good or bad. This people have very recent experiences with censorship as one of main tools of dictatorship. And they are afraid, that dictatorship returns, at gut level. They could understand that intentions is good (again, they are not racists or sexists or whatever), but they hate these measures, and they don't believe that "the end justifies the means", because they remember that it was de-facto motto of dictatorships in Eastern Europe.
      - watwut 6y ago
        People in eastern Europe are way more accepting of censorship of various kinds and Americans. They also tend to be more pro-authoritarian. So I don't think this is so valid. What eastern european has more then that is utter shock over conflicts that arise when people speak their minds more. Plus, it is not like America did not had censorship of private kind in the past. It had. It did not had state one. Because really, if some place is more at risk of dictatorship coming back, it is various countries in Eastern Europe. So much for people there being scared. Some are, but what others really want is strong hand to squash whatever is perceived of breaking the peace.
type0 6y ago
> When I think of a blacklist I imagine a list colored black, not the people of color and all the history behind it. I saw on the tv news recently about some topic where government documents were redacted for press, censuring certain name with black rectangles. Is using white paper and black text, black redaction to hide the words inherently racist? > The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. Go and tell that to in all former soviet central asian republics, to the people of native ethnicities there. I'm pretty sure most of them consider themselves asian, in the same way chinese consider themselves asian and not white. Some countries there lost considerable amounts of cultural heritage thanks to this kind of thinking. Stalin forcefully relocated thousands of people across the USSR, millions of families suffered terribly. But even if someone is eurasian, this doesn't mean that they will have "a half of white privilege", this concept doesn't exist in reality.
- allarm 6y ago
  1. No, why? 2. Well I never argued with that, but no one in the whole world ever called them “blacks”.
blacklion 6y ago
> behave like racists Please, note, that English is not native language for all these people (me included). For us technical term is technical term, without emotional load. Why do we behave like racists? > “I don’t have anything in common with those racists” I disagree with term "racists" here, but I have many in common with these people, including knee-jerk reaction. But I force myself to stop this reaction and think like this: "It is not my native language, I can not feel emotional load of these terms, so I need to believe native speakers that it is a problem". It requires conscious effort from me, each time. > please don’t involve the Soviet trauma bs in that. Sorry, but I can not, because, again, I analyze my feelings and see roots of them. Yes, roots are in hate to USSR past and clear parallels which I see between USSR (or, if you want Orwellian) newspeak and changing of technical terms, which doesn't have any relation to slavery in USA ("black list" is black because it is list of crossed-out items, which makes lines in this list black, for example). But then I say to myself: "Stop. I'm not native spaaker, I'm not living in USA, I need to believe, that is change for better, because I cannot judge by myself, as I don't have same cultural background". Of course, all people are different, and it will be stupid to claim that everybody who live in ex-USSR ("extended") territory is the same, but I know, from discussions in my native language that many people (not all!) share these feelings.

by allarm 6y ago

watwut 6y ago

> The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in their minds between the race and the name of the color. The first part is true, second part is not. The people from Eastern block are well aware of the races and do have opinions about which race is how, up to certain races being inferior. The blacklist as word is not associated with race. But they will make quick judgements about what the words and events and historical characters should mean for black or white Americans. That typically with zero knowledge of American history and race relations. You will also see people assuming native Americans history is what the movie "Winnetou" shows. For example, when there is conflict about things like Africans complaining about not getting proper scientific attribution, you can count on eastern European people assuming African is crazy and don't deserve that.

allarm 6y ago
Well, I’m not saying that they’re not aware of the races per se. I’m saying that “black” for them means the name of the color, again, not the racial reference. That’s why renaming blacklist/whitelist things is a very american-centric thing, which looks ridiculous to the most of the world outside Americas.
- watwut 6y ago
  So, Americans rename things in American software or writing because of what those words mean to them in their own native language. Then people who have that language as second and dont really know wtf is going on ridicule them and complain about that being american-centric? When Americans do the same, they are rightfully labeled as arrogant. It is same arrogance when Eastern Europeans do it.
  - blacklion 6y ago
    It is not so simple, as "arrogance". First, it is international software. OSS is world-wide and international, not American one. Second, people for whom English is second language, really know that it is called "censorship", no matter is intentions good or bad. This people have very recent experiences with censorship as one of main tools of dictatorship. And they are afraid, that dictatorship returns, at gut level. They could understand that intentions is good (again, they are not racists or sexists or whatever), but they hate these measures, and they don't believe that "the end justifies the means", because they remember that it was de-facto motto of dictatorships in Eastern Europe.
    - watwut 6y ago
      People in eastern Europe are way more accepting of censorship of various kinds and Americans. They also tend to be more pro-authoritarian. So I don't think this is so valid. What eastern european has more then that is utter shock over conflicts that arise when people speak their minds more. Plus, it is not like America did not had censorship of private kind in the past. It had. It did not had state one. Because really, if some place is more at risk of dictatorship coming back, it is various countries in Eastern Europe. So much for people there being scared. Some are, but what others really want is strong hand to squash whatever is perceived of breaking the peace.

type0 6y ago

> When I think of a blacklist I imagine a list colored black, not the people of color and all the history behind it. I saw on the tv news recently about some topic where government documents were redacted for press, censuring certain name with black rectangles. Is using white paper and black text, black redaction to hide the words inherently racist? > The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and grew up in primarily white society. Go and tell that to in all former soviet central asian republics, to the people of native ethnicities there. I'm pretty sure most of them consider themselves asian, in the same way chinese consider themselves asian and not white. Some countries there lost considerable amounts of cultural heritage thanks to this kind of thinking. Stalin forcefully relocated thousands of people across the USSR, millions of families suffered terribly. But even if someone is eurasian, this doesn't mean that they will have "a half of white privilege", this concept doesn't exist in reality.

allarm 6y ago
1. No, why? 2. Well I never argued with that, but no one in the whole world ever called them “blacks”.

blacklion 6y ago

> behave like racists Please, note, that English is not native language for all these people (me included). For us technical term is technical term, without emotional load. Why do we behave like racists? > “I don’t have anything in common with those racists” I disagree with term "racists" here, but I have many in common with these people, including knee-jerk reaction. But I force myself to stop this reaction and think like this: "It is not my native language, I can not feel emotional load of these terms, so I need to believe native speakers that it is a problem". It requires conscious effort from me, each time. > please don’t involve the Soviet trauma bs in that. Sorry, but I can not, because, again, I analyze my feelings and see roots of them. Yes, roots are in hate to USSR past and clear parallels which I see between USSR (or, if you want Orwellian) newspeak and changing of technical terms, which doesn't have any relation to slavery in USA ("black list" is black because it is list of crossed-out items, which makes lines in this list black, for example). But then I say to myself: "Stop. I'm not native spaaker, I'm not living in USA, I need to believe, that is change for better, because I cannot judge by myself, as I don't have same cultural background". Of course, all people are different, and it will be stupid to claim that everybody who live in ex-USSR ("extended") territory is the same, but I know, from discussions in my native language that many people (not all!) share these feelings.