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Latin america and even india are proofs that "pure" protectionism does not work. Even China is an example of free trade working. China opened up massively, redu

Latin america and even india are proofs that "pure" protectionism does not work. Even China is an example of free trade working. China opened up massively, reduced customs, reduced costs of doing business etc for 3 decades before moving towards more restrictive and more protectionist policies. After learning as much as possible from foreign corporations that flocked to China. Even now, free trade would be much more beneficial to china economically if it wasn't for the current geopolitical situation. Of course it was very far from a totally deregulated free market, but the Chinese government craved foreign investment for most of the 1990s-2000s and did everything to attract it. India on the other hand has a very bad reputation when it comes to international investment because of it's famously poor economic (and protectionist/populist) policies that made investment very risky. It's very hard for a country like India or Argentina to actually innovate when they restrict themselves to a local pool of knowledge, talent, and experience. And that's precisely why India has lagged far, far behind China even if they were ahead in the 1970s-80s. You don't want to reinvent everything all the time, it just isn't possible without lagging far behind and that's what happens with protectionism.You will almost always end up with a low skilled economy with basic economic output (like beverages or commodities). It's easy to totally replace coca cola with local alternatives, it's impossible to do for sectors like semiconductors or finance when you have to start from almost 0 because no one wants to invest in a protectionist economy.

systemvoltage 6y ago
Easy to prove the point: Stop importing semiconductors and see how India or Argentina would fare.
adi2907 6y ago
China never allowed unfettered access to global firms. Since Deng Xiaoping opened up, the rule for a foreign firm to gain access was 1) to tie up with a local company which will have significant stake and 2) ensure technology transfer to the local company over a period. This was a pre condition for market access, and basically how electronics components makers were built. The recent stars like Huawei, Xiaomi and Lenovo could only be built once the supply ecosystem was local. You will not find a single example of any country becoming developed following free trade except for island nations like Singapore
- mardifoufs 6y ago
  As I said, China is now able to afford protectionism because of a much more foreign investment minded policy than India. It's weird to only focus on protectionism being a positive when almost all of the more protectionist countries are way behind economically. China has been the most successful when it has had the least closed economy and it didn't start producing Lenovo laptops because of protectionism. If that was the case, why don't we have Indian or Argentinian laptops by now? Arguing that protectionism is good because you are producing beverages when the downside is literal decades lost to anemic growth and poverty is just missing the forest for the tree. India was at a similar but better place than China was, but China embraced foreign investment, liberalization, low friction to trade. And india got totally leapfrogged. Things are changing now, but for a while China was definitely much safer to invest in than India since the whole country was hellbent on not interfering with foreign investing. You were (and still are) much more likely to get your investment made worthless by aggressive "local at all costs" policies in India than in China. Look at what happened to Walmart recently. India wants desperately to skip the "industrialization" and foreign ownership phase and go directly to where china is now, but that's ignoring 30 years of smart policy in China. Keep in mind, free trade and free international markets still allow for a very regulated economy and socialist policies. So protectionism, by reducing prosperity and investment actually cripples social programs. Scandinavia is known to be "social democrat" but still has a very open economy. Prosperity has been mostly induced by free movement of goods. Of course, China does not want to keep being a manufacturing only economy, and is moving towards a service oriented one. But that's what always happens
  - imtringued 6y ago
    I agree with your comment. First you want to drag your country up to the same level everyone is at. Usually this is done by letting investors into your country because they will do the same thing they did at home. Only once the investors have established a profitable and self sufficient industry it is time to kick them out. Someone also mentioned that Brazil is putting tarrifs on foreign goods. This is fine but there should be an exemption for foreign companies operating within the borders of your country. The exemption would apply to products assembled within Brazil. That way Apple could decide to build a factory in Brazil and provide job opportunities.
intended 6y ago
I think you’ve made an argument for free trade, but your examples and logic don’t refute the value of protectionism. China is a ridiculously protectionist state - people in the west had theorized that the market would force China to more opennness and democracy back in the day. China instead found a way to run a market with Chinese characteristics - a dual contract system where the English contract holds little power, knowledge transfer, a closed media environment and more. It’s worked too. China suggests that some players can extract the benefits of free trade and protectionist policy.
- mardifoufs 6y ago
  I totally realize that China is far from liberal but it has been much more prosperous and became a superpower because it has liberalized vast swaths of the economy. I guess it would have been better to say that it's doing better than India because it moved a hypothetical protectionism-free trade slider further to the free trade side. There are tons of smart decisions from China that also made the liberalization very successful, such as understanding the vital importance of foreign capital, access to the world's markets, infrastructure investment, and slowly building up knowledge instead of going all in "in house" too quickly. Still, none of what has been accomplished in China could've been possible with very high tariffs, obsession in homegrown industry before acquiring expertise, and obsession with policies that have always failed but still sound good to the electorate. All of which are characteristic of India, Argentina, Egypt, etc. And I'd argue that China is better when it comes to free movement of trade than India even if it's much worst in almost every other type of freedom.
- unishark 6y ago
  > China is a ridiculously protectionist state - people in the west had theorized that the market would force China to more opennness and democracy back in the day. The Chinese government has almost completely lost control of its market. They can control (and profit massively from) very narrow things like blocking foreign servers on their internet (which happens to include our largest tech companies) but otherwise it is very much the wild west over there. The political system has chinese characteristics, but the wildfire of capitalism going in is just plain capitalism, and more so than in the US in some ways. As for whether the government can survive, this is a complicated question but sooner or later an opposition group always defeats the rulers. I wound't write this ending off yet. Or ever, really.
hristov 6y ago
Latin America is an example how the "free market" theory as espoused by the washington consensus is very bad for developing nations. Latin America is the region that most closely follows the washington consensus and they have suffered for this mightily for this over the post ww2 years. There were little spurts of protectionism in argentina and brasil but those happened only around the 2000s and only as a reaction after many years of gutting the countries under free market policies. Holding China as an example of free trade success is a little wrong, to say the least. Post ww2 China has always had a very carefully crafted protectionist policies, and while they did open up majorly, they are still very protectionist by almost any sane international standard. Lets not forget that even now to start any significant business in China you need to make sure that Chinese nationals own a majority of your business. India liberalized much more than China during the 80s and 90s, so if you want to make that comparison, India should be on the free trade side. In my opinion though the Chinese economic success in comparison to India had much more to do with domestic social policies. China simply did the best to ensure that despite wide spread poverty most people have access to education, clean water, modern medical services, modern telecom and transportation infrastructure, etc. India, on the other hand, as part of their "modernization" gutted social programs (again, listening to the Washington consensus) and they still have a vast part of their population in a more or less pre-industrial state of education and development.
- wslh 6y ago
  > There were little spurts of protectionism in argentina and brasil but those happened only around the 2000s and only as a reaction after many years of gutting the countries under free market policies. On the contrary. Brazil and Argentina are super protectionists and never had a free market economy in the last decades. Free market means entering product from other markets with a near zero tariff. For example, the price of a notebook in theses markets is 2x the price in US, and always worked like that. For an Argentinian a top of the line 13" MacBook Pro in US at USD 2k is cheap because in Argentina that will cost more than USD 4k. There were arbitrary cases (e.g. clothes) where in the 90s the imports from China broke local factories but never a free market economy but an arbitrary market economy.
- mardifoufs 6y ago

systemvoltage 6y ago

Easy to prove the point: Stop importing semiconductors and see how India or Argentina would fare.

adi2907 6y ago

China never allowed unfettered access to global firms. Since Deng Xiaoping opened up, the rule for a foreign firm to gain access was 1) to tie up with a local company which will have significant stake and 2) ensure technology transfer to the local company over a period. This was a pre condition for market access, and basically how electronics components makers were built. The recent stars like Huawei, Xiaomi and Lenovo could only be built once the supply ecosystem was local. You will not find a single example of any country becoming developed following free trade except for island nations like Singapore

mardifoufs 6y ago
As I said, China is now able to afford protectionism because of a much more foreign investment minded policy than India. It's weird to only focus on protectionism being a positive when almost all of the more protectionist countries are way behind economically. China has been the most successful when it has had the least closed economy and it didn't start producing Lenovo laptops because of protectionism. If that was the case, why don't we have Indian or Argentinian laptops by now? Arguing that protectionism is good because you are producing beverages when the downside is literal decades lost to anemic growth and poverty is just missing the forest for the tree. India was at a similar but better place than China was, but China embraced foreign investment, liberalization, low friction to trade. And india got totally leapfrogged. Things are changing now, but for a while China was definitely much safer to invest in than India since the whole country was hellbent on not interfering with foreign investing. You were (and still are) much more likely to get your investment made worthless by aggressive "local at all costs" policies in India than in China. Look at what happened to Walmart recently. India wants desperately to skip the "industrialization" and foreign ownership phase and go directly to where china is now, but that's ignoring 30 years of smart policy in China. Keep in mind, free trade and free international markets still allow for a very regulated economy and socialist policies. So protectionism, by reducing prosperity and investment actually cripples social programs. Scandinavia is known to be "social democrat" but still has a very open economy. Prosperity has been mostly induced by free movement of goods. Of course, China does not want to keep being a manufacturing only economy, and is moving towards a service oriented one. But that's what always happens
- imtringued 6y ago
  I agree with your comment. First you want to drag your country up to the same level everyone is at. Usually this is done by letting investors into your country because they will do the same thing they did at home. Only once the investors have established a profitable and self sufficient industry it is time to kick them out. Someone also mentioned that Brazil is putting tarrifs on foreign goods. This is fine but there should be an exemption for foreign companies operating within the borders of your country. The exemption would apply to products assembled within Brazil. That way Apple could decide to build a factory in Brazil and provide job opportunities.

intended 6y ago

I think you’ve made an argument for free trade, but your examples and logic don’t refute the value of protectionism. China is a ridiculously protectionist state - people in the west had theorized that the market would force China to more opennness and democracy back in the day. China instead found a way to run a market with Chinese characteristics - a dual contract system where the English contract holds little power, knowledge transfer, a closed media environment and more. It’s worked too. China suggests that some players can extract the benefits of free trade and protectionist policy.

mardifoufs 6y ago
I totally realize that China is far from liberal but it has been much more prosperous and became a superpower because it has liberalized vast swaths of the economy. I guess it would have been better to say that it's doing better than India because it moved a hypothetical protectionism-free trade slider further to the free trade side. There are tons of smart decisions from China that also made the liberalization very successful, such as understanding the vital importance of foreign capital, access to the world's markets, infrastructure investment, and slowly building up knowledge instead of going all in "in house" too quickly. Still, none of what has been accomplished in China could've been possible with very high tariffs, obsession in homegrown industry before acquiring expertise, and obsession with policies that have always failed but still sound good to the electorate. All of which are characteristic of India, Argentina, Egypt, etc. And I'd argue that China is better when it comes to free movement of trade than India even if it's much worst in almost every other type of freedom.
unishark 6y ago
> China is a ridiculously protectionist state - people in the west had theorized that the market would force China to more opennness and democracy back in the day. The Chinese government has almost completely lost control of its market. They can control (and profit massively from) very narrow things like blocking foreign servers on their internet (which happens to include our largest tech companies) but otherwise it is very much the wild west over there. The political system has chinese characteristics, but the wildfire of capitalism going in is just plain capitalism, and more so than in the US in some ways. As for whether the government can survive, this is a complicated question but sooner or later an opposition group always defeats the rulers. I wound't write this ending off yet. Or ever, really.

hristov 6y ago

Latin America is an example how the "free market" theory as espoused by the washington consensus is very bad for developing nations. Latin America is the region that most closely follows the washington consensus and they have suffered for this mightily for this over the post ww2 years. There were little spurts of protectionism in argentina and brasil but those happened only around the 2000s and only as a reaction after many years of gutting the countries under free market policies. Holding China as an example of free trade success is a little wrong, to say the least. Post ww2 China has always had a very carefully crafted protectionist policies, and while they did open up majorly, they are still very protectionist by almost any sane international standard. Lets not forget that even now to start any significant business in China you need to make sure that Chinese nationals own a majority of your business. India liberalized much more than China during the 80s and 90s, so if you want to make that comparison, India should be on the free trade side. In my opinion though the Chinese economic success in comparison to India had much more to do with domestic social policies. China simply did the best to ensure that despite wide spread poverty most people have access to education, clean water, modern medical services, modern telecom and transportation infrastructure, etc. India, on the other hand, as part of their "modernization" gutted social programs (again, listening to the Washington consensus) and they still have a vast part of their population in a more or less pre-industrial state of education and development.

wslh 6y ago
> There were little spurts of protectionism in argentina and brasil but those happened only around the 2000s and only as a reaction after many years of gutting the countries under free market policies. On the contrary. Brazil and Argentina are super protectionists and never had a free market economy in the last decades. Free market means entering product from other markets with a near zero tariff. For example, the price of a notebook in theses markets is 2x the price in US, and always worked like that. For an Argentinian a top of the line 13" MacBook Pro in US at USD 2k is cheap because in Argentina that will cost more than USD 4k. There were arbitrary cases (e.g. clothes) where in the 90s the imports from China broke local factories but never a free market economy but an arbitrary market economy.
mardifoufs 6y ago