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I had a professor (a historian who studied Auschwitz) who used to argue the opposite. Germany was a modern, industrialized nation, with an educated population -

I had a professor (a historian who studied Auschwitz) who used to argue the opposite. Germany was a modern, industrialized nation, with an educated population - and yet the majority of the population either actively committed genocide, or were complicit in some fashion. My professor thus argued that the conditions for the Holocaust are not unique, and there could easily be another one.

throwaway6274 6y ago
~50% of the population continues to support abortion, so I’d say we have a very long way to go.
- wildfire 6y ago
  Yes. How long until we can get to 100%? Hopefully valuing life and allowing people to choose will become just the default.
  - throwaway6274 6y ago
    I don’t understand how you can say something like that with a clear conscience. But then again I don’t understand how China can treat the Uighurs the way they are and sleep at night either. I suppose people just rationalize other people in collective societal delusion as “sub-human” to the point where it’s easy to ignore.
    - Udik 6y ago
      > I don’t understand how you can say something like that with a clear conscience Not the gp, but my position is that equating a fetus to a person is a fallacy based in the idea that it's a potential person. Which however means it's actually not one. Human beings have language, thought, self-awareness, memories, knowledge, experience, friends, family, hopes and fears. A fetus, wild speculations aside, has none of these. A dna is just a long molecule, not necessary and not enough to attribute humanity. A developed brain and a sense of self instead are both necessary and sufficient. A fetus has neither.
    - NoahFancyson 6y ago
      The way I think of it is that there is a threshold where babies become real beings. You probably have this threshold too. For example, is masturbation wrong like abortion? You are killing off potential life. I think most people can agree it's not, as the sperm are not suffering and never really had a consciousness to cease. The disagreement is then about when the sperm becomes too alive to kill. Some people think it's at the moment of conception. Others think it's when the fetus has passed a certain level of development, like the first trimester There is also the matter of quality of life to think about. Is it better for a mom living in poverty, addicted to drugs, stuck in an abusive relationship, to bring a child into that world? I think that would actually be quite selfish. If a mom couldn't bear to have an abortion because of guilt, or because she can't stand the idea of ending a life inside her, that would be her prioritizing her own emotional response over the well-being of her child
- orwin 6y ago
  If contraception worked 100%, or if we were able to disable the libido whenever we want and prevent all rape from happening, maybe i would agree with that. Since we're not, until someone convince me the violinist argument is not receivable[0], i would continue to support women wanting early abortion. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion
  - totetsu 6y ago
    I'd like to see some of Thomson's thought experiments made into VR minigames and released on steam.
aembleton 6y ago
> yet the majority of the population either actively committed genocide, or were complicit in some fashion after they were plunged into poverty by the reparations demanded by the Treaty of Versailles. Plunder any first world country like that and expect the same.
Lio 6y ago
I believe this was what the Milgram Experiment[1] was designed to investigate. Sadly it seems to be backed up by Elliott’s famous experiment. [2] Where you tell one group of kids that they are superior to another group with different eye colour. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott
saeranv 6y ago
Really curious why I'm getting downvoted.
- andromeduck 6y ago
  Most people prefer the great men version of history vs more structural takes, and even more like to think that since nazis are evil and they don't see themselves or their friends as evil then such a thing could never happen here.
andromeduck 6y ago
Hayek's Road to Serfdom is still a good read and explains a lot of the process.
NoahFancyson 6y ago
This reminds me of this cool clip where Jordan Peterson claimed that the Holocaust was a result of excess civilization[0] 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBu6xI1iUM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBu6xI1iUM0

throwaway6274 6y ago

~50% of the population continues to support abortion, so I’d say we have a very long way to go.

wildfire 6y ago
Yes. How long until we can get to 100%? Hopefully valuing life and allowing people to choose will become just the default.
- throwaway6274 6y ago
  I don’t understand how you can say something like that with a clear conscience. But then again I don’t understand how China can treat the Uighurs the way they are and sleep at night either. I suppose people just rationalize other people in collective societal delusion as “sub-human” to the point where it’s easy to ignore.
  - Udik 6y ago
    > I don’t understand how you can say something like that with a clear conscience Not the gp, but my position is that equating a fetus to a person is a fallacy based in the idea that it's a potential person. Which however means it's actually not one. Human beings have language, thought, self-awareness, memories, knowledge, experience, friends, family, hopes and fears. A fetus, wild speculations aside, has none of these. A dna is just a long molecule, not necessary and not enough to attribute humanity. A developed brain and a sense of self instead are both necessary and sufficient. A fetus has neither.
  - NoahFancyson 6y ago
    The way I think of it is that there is a threshold where babies become real beings. You probably have this threshold too. For example, is masturbation wrong like abortion? You are killing off potential life. I think most people can agree it's not, as the sperm are not suffering and never really had a consciousness to cease. The disagreement is then about when the sperm becomes too alive to kill. Some people think it's at the moment of conception. Others think it's when the fetus has passed a certain level of development, like the first trimester There is also the matter of quality of life to think about. Is it better for a mom living in poverty, addicted to drugs, stuck in an abusive relationship, to bring a child into that world? I think that would actually be quite selfish. If a mom couldn't bear to have an abortion because of guilt, or because she can't stand the idea of ending a life inside her, that would be her prioritizing her own emotional response over the well-being of her child
orwin 6y ago
If contraception worked 100%, or if we were able to disable the libido whenever we want and prevent all rape from happening, maybe i would agree with that. Since we're not, until someone convince me the violinist argument is not receivable[0], i would continue to support women wanting early abortion. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion
- totetsu 6y ago
  I'd like to see some of Thomson's thought experiments made into VR minigames and released on steam.

aembleton 6y ago

> yet the majority of the population either actively committed genocide, or were complicit in some fashion after they were plunged into poverty by the reparations demanded by the Treaty of Versailles. Plunder any first world country like that and expect the same.

Lio 6y ago

I believe this was what the Milgram Experiment[1] was designed to investigate. Sadly it seems to be backed up by Elliott’s famous experiment. [2] Where you tell one group of kids that they are superior to another group with different eye colour. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

saeranv 6y ago

Really curious why I'm getting downvoted.

andromeduck 6y ago
Most people prefer the great men version of history vs more structural takes, and even more like to think that since nazis are evil and they don't see themselves or their friends as evil then such a thing could never happen here.

andromeduck 6y ago

Hayek's Road to Serfdom is still a good read and explains a lot of the process.

NoahFancyson 6y ago

This reminds me of this cool clip where Jordan Peterson claimed that the Holocaust was a result of excess civilization[0] 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBu6xI1iUM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBu6xI1iUM0