7 ms·

This is sad, not so much because of the lack of code coming from this world class programmer, but because coding is such fun, and Torvalds isn't having fun prog

This is sad, not so much because of the lack of code coming from this world class programmer, but because coding is such fun, and Torvalds isn't having fun programming, else he'd be doing it. I'm closing in on forty years of coding and still get a kick out of it. I'd still be doing it if I weren't getting paid for it. But my skills are at best, uh, modest compared to Linus. I'd think that doing a thing so much better would only be that much more fun. But this is a data point against that correlation.

sys_64738 6y ago
Technical leaders often get promoted away from their core skills into managerial or administrative type roles. This ones sounds like a gate keeping role
- flowersjeff 6y ago
  This is not what happened here.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    How is that not what happened? Torvalds wrote code, and now he manages other people writing code. He's not a people-manager; he is at least still in a technical role, but he's not a dev anymore.
    - arp242 6y ago
      I assume he's in his current position by choice. He pretty much says so: "It is an interesting job". He still deals with plenty of code; he just doesn't write original code. Calling it a "managerial or administrative type role" as the previous comment did is somewhat lacking in nuance, IMO.
      - sys_64738 6y ago
        He's not a developer and hasn't been for a while. He's a TPM by sounds of it. Don't understand the downvotes but perhaps that's down to junior developers who don't understand what a TPM is.
usefulcat 6y ago
I didn’t see where he said that he doesn’t enjoy it any more. To me it sounds like his lack of coding is more out of necessity.
xfitm3 6y ago
Coding is fun but for me collaborative development has stopped being fun. People can be rude, biased, and it seems there is always someone with 50 questions or a concern who sucks the life right out of it.
- steelframe 6y ago
  Have you considered that perhaps you're trying to have your fun at the expense of the maintainability of a shared code base?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - znpy 6y ago
    It should be anybody's prerogative. Maybe somebody is exploring an idea and doesn't really care about maintainablity or something else.
    - coliveira 6y ago
      Moreover, everyone has a different perspective of what is a maintainable codebase. Why the other one must always be the right one?
      - bob1029 6y ago
        I would say that there are a fairly specific set of criteria against which you could evaluate how maintainable a codebase is. I feel most of it boils down to how many hours it takes to resolve a change request on average. Developer time is money, good developers are scarce, and if you are doing this for business reasons it's really hard to ignore this aspect as a primary driving factor.
- bob1029 6y ago
  This is the key. I used to be really crabby with our codebase at work, and programming in general, because it was the only thing I developed on. I have recently adopted a large, sprawling side-project of which I am the sole developer. Having a big space to play in on the side has really helped me keep my interest pure and exciting. Not answering to anyone but myself is easily the best aspect. The codebase is private and no one but me may ever see it. I am also a lot more pragmatic about the codebase at work, as I am not trying to squeeze in fun/innovative ideas at the expense of productivity or the experience of other teammates. Now, most of my "blue sky" ideas wind up being things for my side project. Feels like I have a pressure relief valve that I can rely on now. There have already been a few cases where I implement a crazy idea on my side project and determine the abstraction is also an excellent fit for something at work. Being able to iterate on these ideas in a completely separate domain from work concerns allows for deep (and enjoyable) refinement without taking the rest of the enterprise for a trip every time.
O5vYtytb 6y ago
Linus still authors code, just not on the kernel. He still seems pretty active on https://github.com/subsurface/subsurface https://github.com/subsurface/subsurface and even some recent commits into git.
emps-new-groove 6y ago
You enjoy certain ways of thinking. Code is beautiful because it leveraged many skills you and I love. You can, however, use those same muscles and skills via other mediums and activities. It’s different which is different.
wadkar 6y ago
I saw the video and later in the video he does say that he writes code inside his mail editor (pseudocode, or directly editing patches). So I don't think he said anything of the sorts that he is not having fun programming. And in fact when the interviewer asks a question in the similar vein, Linus is quick to point out that he would be really bored if he wasn't the maintainer. Edit: All I am trying to say is I wouldn't speculate on what Linus feels and doesn't feel when he can speak for himself (and which he does in the video). At the same time the general discussion in this subthread is very interesting.
subroutine 6y ago
In a way though, he's still coding, just at a different level of abstraction. Metaphorically, he used to generate bricks himself, then add them to his castle. Now people bring him bricks and he choses the ones he likes and which to discard. So at the end of the day, perhaps this is still a castle of his design. meh?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  This is the typical trade off of management. You surrender low level control for higher level control and the ability to get more done overall (since you’re coordinating the labor of dozens of people).
  - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    But honestly, what Linus is doing strikes me as a much lower level than what we normally think of as the "management tradeoff". I mean, he's reviewing a ton of PRs, actually writing code in is email client as suggestions to patches. I see that as more of a "principal engineer" type role than an "engineering management" role.
    - pas 6y ago
      He's basically the lead dev in a comically huge yet strangely efficient group. But since it's still one project, it's still a very tightly integrated monolith, there is an advantage to doing this kind of quality/engineering management.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      He's also fulfilling the role typically handled by a product owner; he's deciding what features get prioritized. That has to be a pretty exhausting way to work.
ndesaulniers 6y ago
He may not be one of the top ten monthly contributors to the kernel by measure of lines of code or number of commits anymore, but he still is writing patches for the kernel, reviewing, and suggesting diffs people actually use.

sys_64738 6y ago

Technical leaders often get promoted away from their core skills into managerial or administrative type roles. This ones sounds like a gate keeping role

flowersjeff 6y ago
This is not what happened here.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  How is that not what happened? Torvalds wrote code, and now he manages other people writing code. He's not a people-manager; he is at least still in a technical role, but he's not a dev anymore.
  - arp242 6y ago
    I assume he's in his current position by choice. He pretty much says so: "It is an interesting job". He still deals with plenty of code; he just doesn't write original code. Calling it a "managerial or administrative type role" as the previous comment did is somewhat lacking in nuance, IMO.
    - sys_64738 6y ago
      He's not a developer and hasn't been for a while. He's a TPM by sounds of it. Don't understand the downvotes but perhaps that's down to junior developers who don't understand what a TPM is.

usefulcat 6y ago

I didn’t see where he said that he doesn’t enjoy it any more. To me it sounds like his lack of coding is more out of necessity.

xfitm3 6y ago

Coding is fun but for me collaborative development has stopped being fun. People can be rude, biased, and it seems there is always someone with 50 questions or a concern who sucks the life right out of it.

steelframe 6y ago
Have you considered that perhaps you're trying to have your fun at the expense of the maintainability of a shared code base?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- znpy 6y ago
  It should be anybody's prerogative. Maybe somebody is exploring an idea and doesn't really care about maintainablity or something else.
  - coliveira 6y ago
    Moreover, everyone has a different perspective of what is a maintainable codebase. Why the other one must always be the right one?
    - bob1029 6y ago
      I would say that there are a fairly specific set of criteria against which you could evaluate how maintainable a codebase is. I feel most of it boils down to how many hours it takes to resolve a change request on average. Developer time is money, good developers are scarce, and if you are doing this for business reasons it's really hard to ignore this aspect as a primary driving factor.
bob1029 6y ago
This is the key. I used to be really crabby with our codebase at work, and programming in general, because it was the only thing I developed on. I have recently adopted a large, sprawling side-project of which I am the sole developer. Having a big space to play in on the side has really helped me keep my interest pure and exciting. Not answering to anyone but myself is easily the best aspect. The codebase is private and no one but me may ever see it. I am also a lot more pragmatic about the codebase at work, as I am not trying to squeeze in fun/innovative ideas at the expense of productivity or the experience of other teammates. Now, most of my "blue sky" ideas wind up being things for my side project. Feels like I have a pressure relief valve that I can rely on now. There have already been a few cases where I implement a crazy idea on my side project and determine the abstraction is also an excellent fit for something at work. Being able to iterate on these ideas in a completely separate domain from work concerns allows for deep (and enjoyable) refinement without taking the rest of the enterprise for a trip every time.

O5vYtytb 6y ago

Linus still authors code, just not on the kernel. He still seems pretty active on https://github.com/subsurface/subsurface https://github.com/subsurface/subsurface and even some recent commits into git.

emps-new-groove 6y ago

You enjoy certain ways of thinking. Code is beautiful because it leveraged many skills you and I love. You can, however, use those same muscles and skills via other mediums and activities. It’s different which is different.

wadkar 6y ago

I saw the video and later in the video he does say that he writes code inside his mail editor (pseudocode, or directly editing patches). So I don't think he said anything of the sorts that he is not having fun programming. And in fact when the interviewer asks a question in the similar vein, Linus is quick to point out that he would be really bored if he wasn't the maintainer. Edit: All I am trying to say is I wouldn't speculate on what Linus feels and doesn't feel when he can speak for himself (and which he does in the video). At the same time the general discussion in this subthread is very interesting.

subroutine 6y ago

In a way though, he's still coding, just at a different level of abstraction. Metaphorically, he used to generate bricks himself, then add them to his castle. Now people bring him bricks and he choses the ones he likes and which to discard. So at the end of the day, perhaps this is still a castle of his design. meh?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ashtonkem 6y ago
This is the typical trade off of management. You surrender low level control for higher level control and the ability to get more done overall (since you’re coordinating the labor of dozens of people).
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  But honestly, what Linus is doing strikes me as a much lower level than what we normally think of as the "management tradeoff". I mean, he's reviewing a ton of PRs, actually writing code in is email client as suggestions to patches. I see that as more of a "principal engineer" type role than an "engineering management" role.
  - pas 6y ago
    He's basically the lead dev in a comically huge yet strangely efficient group. But since it's still one project, it's still a very tightly integrated monolith, there is an advantage to doing this kind of quality/engineering management.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    He's also fulfilling the role typically handled by a product owner; he's deciding what features get prioritized. That has to be a pretty exhausting way to work.

ndesaulniers 6y ago

He may not be one of the top ten monthly contributors to the kernel by measure of lines of code or number of commits anymore, but he still is writing patches for the kernel, reviewing, and suggesting diffs people actually use.