6 ms·

This is attacking a straw man. There is no (serious) argument to "cancel" America wholesale (well, apart from the anarchists, but they'd agree with you about al

by geofft 6y ago

This is attacking a straw man. There is no (serious) argument to "cancel" America wholesale (well, apart from the anarchists, but they'd agree with you about all those other countries too). There is a serious argument for holding America accountable for the things she has done wrong. You only hold people accountable whom you believe are actually trying to do good and whom you actually think can do better. People talk about the world's dictatorships and ongoing crimes against humanity with a tone of resignation because nobody really expects them to decide to be better; they talk about America with a tone of correction because they believe America can improve. Your parents didn't "cancel" you for each childhood mistake, but I certainly hope they asked you to demonstrate that you understood what you did wrong and asked you to make amends if possible - that's how you grow. That's what Popehat's story is about, I think. The story is poignant specifically because America broke a promise to these soldiers - and finally acknowledged and remedied it. The author makes it clear that these soldiers had every right to be hurt, but they loved America anyway - which is very different from ignoring the mistake. The author calls it a "stain on out honor" because we have honor. It wasn't their responsibility to criticize America for failing them - but that means it was someone else's responsibility. Part of what makes the nation great is that in 1990 people did care enough to grant then citizenship, finally. "America! America! God mend thine every flaw! Confirm thy soul in self-control, thy liberty in law!"

rayiner 6y ago
There is a serious attempt to cancel America, that goes beyond holding America responsible for its past wrongs. Someone posted a link to this tweet elsewhere in this thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/arlenparsa/status/1168189409549803524?ref_url=https%3a%2f%2fd-9090017813444808207.ampproject.net%2f2006112352003%2fframe.html https://mobile.twitter.com/arlenparsa/status/116818940954980... I think this is not an uncommon opinion and it’s becoming more and more mainstream. And that sort of thinking is an attempt to cancel America. It’s not just saying that America has done certain bad things and we need to fix them. It’s saying that the founders were bad so we get to relitigate everything. America can always be improved, but you can’t just slap the label “America” on whatever grab-bag of ideas you want. America is an opinionated nation (in the sense of “opinionated software”). And there is an ongoing movement to cancel those opinions.
- jrmg 6y ago
  The questioning of opinions in the service of building a nation in which everyone has equal opportunity is one of the most American opinions there is. If that’s gone then all is lost. [Edit: and I don’t believe it’s gone!]
- tptacek 6y ago
  Can you see how a reasonable person might read this as catastrophizing? The tweet you linked to is pretty banal, and appears factual. I'm having trouble even connecting the dots from "many of the founders were slaveowners" to "let's cancel America". The nuns taught me the same thing in 1980s Catholic grammar school.
  - jariel 6y ago
    Colin Kaepernick Tweeted today that 'July 4th is a Celebration of White Supremacy'. This is an existential attack on the nation by a popular figure defended and support by most of the press and major international corporations. I don't have the reference, but yesterday, in response to an arguably racist Tweet about a white person doing something within the range of normal, but being interpreted as negative, the top Tweet response from a Black woman with over 10K likes was simply 'White people are a disease'. Nobody though to take this down as 'hate speech it seems'. This is definitely an 'existential' statement about the system, not just the narrower BLM ideal of rectifying police injustice etc.. There is a legit movement to rectify past wrongs obviously, but there are definitely existential aspects to this that cannot be ignored. So those are very populist examples, but there are definitely more foundational intellectual movements afoot as well. 'Cancel America' is sadly, a thing, mixed in with all the other things. [1] https://twitter.com/Kaepernick7/status/1279463720318570497 https://twitter.com/Kaepernick7/status/1279463720318570497
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - thinkingemote 6y ago
      The terms are getting diluted to meaninglessness. For many, just recently "White Supremacy" now equates to "Western Supremacy" which is left to the readers imagination. I suspect that, for example, advocating for democracy, defending the idea of innocent until proven guilty, criticism of repressive regimes, promoting free enterprise or espousing about the sanctity of the individual, or perhaps just Christianity could be seen as promotion of western standards and therefore a supremacist. Where before a white supremacist was just literally a neo nazi, now they might or might not be any politician from 30 years ago. No one knows anymore.

by geofft 6y ago

rayiner 6y ago

There is a serious attempt to cancel America, that goes beyond holding America responsible for its past wrongs. Someone posted a link to this tweet elsewhere in this thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/arlenparsa/status/1168189409549803524?ref_url=https%3a%2f%2fd-9090017813444808207.ampproject.net%2f2006112352003%2fframe.html https://mobile.twitter.com/arlenparsa/status/116818940954980... I think this is not an uncommon opinion and it’s becoming more and more mainstream. And that sort of thinking is an attempt to cancel America. It’s not just saying that America has done certain bad things and we need to fix them. It’s saying that the founders were bad so we get to relitigate everything. America can always be improved, but you can’t just slap the label “America” on whatever grab-bag of ideas you want. America is an opinionated nation (in the sense of “opinionated software”). And there is an ongoing movement to cancel those opinions.

jrmg 6y ago
The questioning of opinions in the service of building a nation in which everyone has equal opportunity is one of the most American opinions there is. If that’s gone then all is lost. [Edit: and I don’t believe it’s gone!]
tptacek 6y ago
Can you see how a reasonable person might read this as catastrophizing? The tweet you linked to is pretty banal, and appears factual. I'm having trouble even connecting the dots from "many of the founders were slaveowners" to "let's cancel America". The nuns taught me the same thing in 1980s Catholic grammar school.
- jariel 6y ago
  Colin Kaepernick Tweeted today that 'July 4th is a Celebration of White Supremacy'. This is an existential attack on the nation by a popular figure defended and support by most of the press and major international corporations. I don't have the reference, but yesterday, in response to an arguably racist Tweet about a white person doing something within the range of normal, but being interpreted as negative, the top Tweet response from a Black woman with over 10K likes was simply 'White people are a disease'. Nobody though to take this down as 'hate speech it seems'. This is definitely an 'existential' statement about the system, not just the narrower BLM ideal of rectifying police injustice etc.. There is a legit movement to rectify past wrongs obviously, but there are definitely existential aspects to this that cannot be ignored. So those are very populist examples, but there are definitely more foundational intellectual movements afoot as well. 'Cancel America' is sadly, a thing, mixed in with all the other things. [1] https://twitter.com/Kaepernick7/status/1279463720318570497 https://twitter.com/Kaepernick7/status/1279463720318570497
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - thinkingemote 6y ago
    The terms are getting diluted to meaninglessness. For many, just recently "White Supremacy" now equates to "Western Supremacy" which is left to the readers imagination. I suspect that, for example, advocating for democracy, defending the idea of innocent until proven guilty, criticism of repressive regimes, promoting free enterprise or espousing about the sanctity of the individual, or perhaps just Christianity could be seen as promotion of western standards and therefore a supremacist. Where before a white supremacist was just literally a neo nazi, now they might or might not be any politician from 30 years ago. No one knows anymore.