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Capitalism is the paper clip maximizer, non-metaphorically. Science fiction is pretty much always just about things that already happened. “What if we maximize

Capitalism is the paper clip maximizer, non-metaphorically. Science fiction is pretty much always just about things that already happened. “What if we maximized a non-human value?” is just a subconsciously repressed way of asking “Did anyone notice we’ve been maximizing non-human values for a couple hundred years?”

c3534l 6y ago
This doesn't work because humans are the consumer. Humans purchase things based on their own person values. Capitalism has the instrumental goal of maximizing human values. In addition, humans engage in every stage of the process. Some of the biggest failures of capitalism are actually the results of human values: racism, sexism, nepotism. I can think of some issues with unregulated capitalism, but none of them seem to be a paperclip maximizer unless you're taking the phrase to be so non-specific that it essentially just means "unwanted side-effect."
- pegasus 6y ago
  There's definitely something of the paperclip maximizer to capitalism. It's due to corporations having the instrumental goal of maximizing shareholder value - which usually translates in making as much money as possible. If there is a way to convince people that paperclips in excess is what they most need, that's what they will have to do.
- earthboundkid 6y ago
  Sexism, nepotism, and xenophobic predate capitalism, but racism does not. Racism was created as the explanation for why African slavery, which was much more brutal than prior slavery, was okay after all. African slavery in turn was because of mercantilism/capitalism. They were getting out of debt by ruining people’s lives. It was quite inhuman.
Viliam1234 6y ago
It happens in capitalism, and it happens in socialism, because it happens everywhere. It is like saying "entropy increases in capitalism"; technically true, but misleading. Things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law happen regardless of political regime or economical system. In different situations they take different forms: in capitalism, companies try to maximize (short-term) (perceived) shareholder value; in socialism, they try to maximize the favor of the ruling party. In capitalism, your values are important proportionally to how much money you have; in socialism proportionally to how good political connections you have. In capitalism, sometimes people starve to death; in socialism, sometimes people starve to death. The world has many problems, but lack of military dictatorships controlled by a communist party is not one of them. Of course, unless you meant "actually, true socialism has never been tried yet". In which case, sure, as a rule of thumb, imaginary countries do not suffer from real problems (unless the plot demands it).
- jmiserez 6y ago
  Are you replying to the wrong comment? There's no mention of "socialism" in the parent comment?
  - CyanBird 6y ago
    He's just using it for contrast and flair Expanding on a topic necessarily encompasses a superset of cases such as the contrast provided
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  >The world has many problems, but lack of military dictatorships controlled by a communist party is not one of them. // There's N.Korea, but that's not controlled by a communist party. It's notionally controlled by people who call themselves Communist, but they don't appear to do anything ideologically communist. World politics isn't my strong point, where did you have in mind? I note that your structure was "in capitalism, {capitalist ideological outcome, those with capital own the means of production and leech off the value of others labour}; in socialism, {activity directly opposed to socialist ideology}". I'd say 99%, at least, of companies are run under capitalist ideology; to accrue wealth for the owners. So why blame socialism for the upshot of capitalist activity.
  - antepodius 6y ago
    Capitalism's a loaded word. Most people who would call themselves pro-free market aren't in favour of rent-seeking monopolies, just like how most people who would call themselves socialists aren't in favour of putting dissidents in gulags.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    I have no idea if https://dprktoday.com https://dprktoday.com truly is[1] DPRK or someone else's black propaganda (nor do I read korean) but the pictures on it are congruent with those from former communist countries. New factory, with athletic courts (and maybe a stage/multipurpose hall?) for the workers: https://dprktoday.com/content/great/4/sajin/image/2020-05-02/img/13.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content/great/4/sajin/image/2020-05-02... Kids wearing red kerchiefs in botanic: https://dprktoday.com/photos/18301 https://dprktoday.com/photos/18301 Inspecting big industrial things: https://dprktoday.com/photos/18390 https://dprktoday.com/photos/18390 Party meetings (other pics show voting by holding up cards, but the colours don't seem very distinct to me): https://dprktoday.com/photos/15113 https://dprktoday.com/photos/15113 Ski resorts: https://dprktoday.com/news/43327 https://dprktoday.com/news/43327 Doctor's outfit, multi-ethnic star: https://dprktoday.com/photos/18257 https://dprktoday.com/photos/18257 Rods instead of chains on swing sets: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200527-03-1.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200527-03-1.jpg Makeup only in demure colours: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200527-01-2.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200527-01-2.jpg Apartment blocks: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200318-01-1.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200318-01-1.jpg Karaoke (was this actually soviet, or only post-soviet?): https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200418-01-2.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200418-01-2.jpg Comrades painting: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200502-02-2.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200502-02-2.jpg Gender-balanced propaganda statues: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200421-pt18041-1.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200421-pt18041-1... "75 years victory"?: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200318-pt17942-3.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200318-pt17942-3... [1] traceroute is useless these days, and its whois registrar appears to be chinese. Bonus /r/fullcommunism: "let's study" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukBcC-sK3wQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukBcC-sK3wQ Unless they're trolling hard with the english subs, the chorus is about studying for a better future. I know grades were important for early selection in the Young Pioneers, but can't immediately think of such a swotty song in the soviet catalogue (choreography and backing band, however, is spot on). Closest I manage at the moment is the educational background of the main characters in the movie "Three Plus Two."

c3534l 6y ago

This doesn't work because humans are the consumer. Humans purchase things based on their own person values. Capitalism has the instrumental goal of maximizing human values. In addition, humans engage in every stage of the process. Some of the biggest failures of capitalism are actually the results of human values: racism, sexism, nepotism. I can think of some issues with unregulated capitalism, but none of them seem to be a paperclip maximizer unless you're taking the phrase to be so non-specific that it essentially just means "unwanted side-effect."

pegasus 6y ago
There's definitely something of the paperclip maximizer to capitalism. It's due to corporations having the instrumental goal of maximizing shareholder value - which usually translates in making as much money as possible. If there is a way to convince people that paperclips in excess is what they most need, that's what they will have to do.
earthboundkid 6y ago
Sexism, nepotism, and xenophobic predate capitalism, but racism does not. Racism was created as the explanation for why African slavery, which was much more brutal than prior slavery, was okay after all. African slavery in turn was because of mercantilism/capitalism. They were getting out of debt by ruining people’s lives. It was quite inhuman.

Viliam1234 6y ago

It happens in capitalism, and it happens in socialism, because it happens everywhere. It is like saying "entropy increases in capitalism"; technically true, but misleading. Things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law happen regardless of political regime or economical system. In different situations they take different forms: in capitalism, companies try to maximize (short-term) (perceived) shareholder value; in socialism, they try to maximize the favor of the ruling party. In capitalism, your values are important proportionally to how much money you have; in socialism proportionally to how good political connections you have. In capitalism, sometimes people starve to death; in socialism, sometimes people starve to death. The world has many problems, but lack of military dictatorships controlled by a communist party is not one of them. Of course, unless you meant "actually, true socialism has never been tried yet". In which case, sure, as a rule of thumb, imaginary countries do not suffer from real problems (unless the plot demands it).

jmiserez 6y ago
Are you replying to the wrong comment? There's no mention of "socialism" in the parent comment?
- CyanBird 6y ago
  He's just using it for contrast and flair Expanding on a topic necessarily encompasses a superset of cases such as the contrast provided
pbhjpbhj 6y ago
>The world has many problems, but lack of military dictatorships controlled by a communist party is not one of them. // There's N.Korea, but that's not controlled by a communist party. It's notionally controlled by people who call themselves Communist, but they don't appear to do anything ideologically communist. World politics isn't my strong point, where did you have in mind? I note that your structure was "in capitalism, {capitalist ideological outcome, those with capital own the means of production and leech off the value of others labour}; in socialism, {activity directly opposed to socialist ideology}". I'd say 99%, at least, of companies are run under capitalist ideology; to accrue wealth for the owners. So why blame socialism for the upshot of capitalist activity.
- antepodius 6y ago
  Capitalism's a loaded word. Most people who would call themselves pro-free market aren't in favour of rent-seeking monopolies, just like how most people who would call themselves socialists aren't in favour of putting dissidents in gulags.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  I have no idea if https://dprktoday.com https://dprktoday.com truly is[1] DPRK or someone else's black propaganda (nor do I read korean) but the pictures on it are congruent with those from former communist countries. New factory, with athletic courts (and maybe a stage/multipurpose hall?) for the workers: https://dprktoday.com/content/great/4/sajin/image/2020-05-02/img/13.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content/great/4/sajin/image/2020-05-02... Kids wearing red kerchiefs in botanic: https://dprktoday.com/photos/18301 https://dprktoday.com/photos/18301 Inspecting big industrial things: https://dprktoday.com/photos/18390 https://dprktoday.com/photos/18390 Party meetings (other pics show voting by holding up cards, but the colours don't seem very distinct to me): https://dprktoday.com/photos/15113 https://dprktoday.com/photos/15113 Ski resorts: https://dprktoday.com/news/43327 https://dprktoday.com/news/43327 Doctor's outfit, multi-ethnic star: https://dprktoday.com/photos/18257 https://dprktoday.com/photos/18257 Rods instead of chains on swing sets: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200527-03-1.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200527-03-1.jpg Makeup only in demure colours: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200527-01-2.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200527-01-2.jpg Apartment blocks: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200318-01-1.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200318-01-1.jpg Karaoke (was this actually soviet, or only post-soviet?): https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200418-01-2.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200418-01-2.jpg Comrades painting: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200502-02-2.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200502-02-2.jpg Gender-balanced propaganda statues: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200421-pt18041-1.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200421-pt18041-1... "75 years victory"?: https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200318-pt17942-3.jpg https://dprktoday.com/content//photo/2020/20200318-pt17942-3... [1] traceroute is useless these days, and its whois registrar appears to be chinese. Bonus /r/fullcommunism: "let's study" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukBcC-sK3wQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukBcC-sK3wQ Unless they're trolling hard with the english subs, the chorus is about studying for a better future. I know grades were important for early selection in the Young Pioneers, but can't immediately think of such a swotty song in the soviet catalogue (choreography and backing band, however, is spot on). Closest I manage at the moment is the educational background of the main characters in the movie "Three Plus Two."