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Exactly. From what I have seen an apology only makes things worse.

by rowanG077 6y ago

shadowgovt 6y ago
A badly-executed apology divorced from change makes things worse.
- antepodius 6y ago
  Apologising to people who would consider it an acceptable political outcome if you lost your job and killed yourself tends to embolden those partifluar people. Appeasing bullies doesn't work. They want to see you squirm and beg, because it's fun make someone grovel before you. The object-level discussion is secondary. Some people call this dichotomy good and bad faith, right?
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    I think at the same time there are circumstances in which the acceptable outcome is indeed a loss of job. (And to some moral codes, a loss of life- see advocates for the death penalty.) EG. A Manager who pressured people into sexual favors for promotions should lose the job of being a manager.
    - antepodius 6y ago
      Sure, but the point is that if people who want you to lose your job are screaming about you on twitter, it's bad advice to apologise in an attempt to appease them- because the twitter mob won't be happy till you're in the ground. Whether you would be in the mob if the circumstances were turned around is a striking, but secondary, question. Yes, my preferences may include that some people should lose their jobs. But in my case, I think it should only be when that manager is convicted in court, not when someone or some mob) accuses them on twitter. And, actually, if they really did something bad- then let the legal system punish and rehabilitate them! And then don't try and stop them from ever having a job again. Aren't we liberal? Aren't we meant to be for rehabilitation rather than emotion-based punishment? Restorative justice? Or does all that go out the window if you're not politically useful?
      - TeaDrunk 6y ago
        "Sure, but the point is that if people who want you to lose your job are screaming about you on twitter, it's bad advice to apologise in an attempt to appease them- because the twitter mob won't be happy till you're in the ground." I haven't personally observed this nor have I witnessed studies about it. Could you link to me anything like that? I've seen people who have credibly discussed their abuses on twitter and people apologize. Criticism of the apologies are often 1) it is incomplete, 2) it is a non-apology, 3) it has not be followed up with action. I haven't myself seen criticism outside of these things, which are valid critiques and not the sort of overdramatic spectacle you're describing. But I think it's valid that I just am in different circles than you, so I'm curious if you could educate me about this. (Additionally, the legal system is inadequate to address nuanced power structures. Rape, sexual assault, and being a creep are extremely hard to gain redress for, and often make victims blacklisted from the industry. Why are we concerned about the careers of people who do bad things, and not concerns about the careers of people who are their victims? The victims often struggle to find work or are completely blacklisted from their industry.)
        orangecat 6y ago
        Why are we concerned about the careers of people who do bad things It turns out that Twitter mobs sometimes do not have the most discerning standards of evidence. Also, I'm pretty sure you'd have a very different reaction to someone arguing against criminal justice reform on the grounds of "why are we concerned with the welfare of people who do bad things?"
- nullc 6y ago
  No, any admission of fault or error makes things worse. The public is utterly bombarded with claims that this or that person or group was wrong or did wrong with respect to something or another. It's extremely difficult to sort out which of these allegations are true or false. Unless you admit fault, then its obvious to everyone.
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    I've heard this argument made (I believe I've even made it myself at some point), but in practice, it turns out to be less effective than people think. "Be silent and it'll just blow over" is increasingly ineffective as a strategy because the Internet has a longer memory; as one looks up information on a person, allegations will jump to the surface. And increasingly, people seem to assume that absence of a counterpoint is implicit admission of possible truth (there's the perpetual "when will you stop beating your wife" argument, but a lot of other allegations are in far more plausible categories, where silence can imply a lack of ability to defend one's reputation).
    - nullc 6y ago
      I agree with what you're saying there, but instead of responding by apologizing people are often still better off by going on the attack, calling the allegations baseless nonsense, or personally attacking the people spreading them.
      - shadowgovt 6y ago
        That works unless they aren't baseless nonsense.
adventured 6y ago
It always emboldens the mob. They aren't after an apology, they're pursuing harm against the target and typically won't stop until they get it - unless you can show strength to the bully behavior and can stand-off against them (which not everyone can do). If you can, they'll give up and pursue another easier target. The mobs have weaponized job firings, which puts most people in a position of immediate weakness where they're afraid to stand their ground.

Exactly. From what I have seen an apology only makes things worse.

shadowgovt 6y ago

A badly-executed apology divorced from change makes things worse.

antepodius 6y ago
Apologising to people who would consider it an acceptable political outcome if you lost your job and killed yourself tends to embolden those partifluar people. Appeasing bullies doesn't work. They want to see you squirm and beg, because it's fun make someone grovel before you. The object-level discussion is secondary. Some people call this dichotomy good and bad faith, right?
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  I think at the same time there are circumstances in which the acceptable outcome is indeed a loss of job. (And to some moral codes, a loss of life- see advocates for the death penalty.) EG. A Manager who pressured people into sexual favors for promotions should lose the job of being a manager.
  - antepodius 6y ago
    Sure, but the point is that if people who want you to lose your job are screaming about you on twitter, it's bad advice to apologise in an attempt to appease them- because the twitter mob won't be happy till you're in the ground. Whether you would be in the mob if the circumstances were turned around is a striking, but secondary, question. Yes, my preferences may include that some people should lose their jobs. But in my case, I think it should only be when that manager is convicted in court, not when someone or some mob) accuses them on twitter. And, actually, if they really did something bad- then let the legal system punish and rehabilitate them! And then don't try and stop them from ever having a job again. Aren't we liberal? Aren't we meant to be for rehabilitation rather than emotion-based punishment? Restorative justice? Or does all that go out the window if you're not politically useful?
    - TeaDrunk 6y ago
      "Sure, but the point is that if people who want you to lose your job are screaming about you on twitter, it's bad advice to apologise in an attempt to appease them- because the twitter mob won't be happy till you're in the ground." I haven't personally observed this nor have I witnessed studies about it. Could you link to me anything like that? I've seen people who have credibly discussed their abuses on twitter and people apologize. Criticism of the apologies are often 1) it is incomplete, 2) it is a non-apology, 3) it has not be followed up with action. I haven't myself seen criticism outside of these things, which are valid critiques and not the sort of overdramatic spectacle you're describing. But I think it's valid that I just am in different circles than you, so I'm curious if you could educate me about this. (Additionally, the legal system is inadequate to address nuanced power structures. Rape, sexual assault, and being a creep are extremely hard to gain redress for, and often make victims blacklisted from the industry. Why are we concerned about the careers of people who do bad things, and not concerns about the careers of people who are their victims? The victims often struggle to find work or are completely blacklisted from their industry.)
      - orangecat 6y ago
        Why are we concerned about the careers of people who do bad things It turns out that Twitter mobs sometimes do not have the most discerning standards of evidence. Also, I'm pretty sure you'd have a very different reaction to someone arguing against criminal justice reform on the grounds of "why are we concerned with the welfare of people who do bad things?"
nullc 6y ago
No, any admission of fault or error makes things worse. The public is utterly bombarded with claims that this or that person or group was wrong or did wrong with respect to something or another. It's extremely difficult to sort out which of these allegations are true or false. Unless you admit fault, then its obvious to everyone.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  I've heard this argument made (I believe I've even made it myself at some point), but in practice, it turns out to be less effective than people think. "Be silent and it'll just blow over" is increasingly ineffective as a strategy because the Internet has a longer memory; as one looks up information on a person, allegations will jump to the surface. And increasingly, people seem to assume that absence of a counterpoint is implicit admission of possible truth (there's the perpetual "when will you stop beating your wife" argument, but a lot of other allegations are in far more plausible categories, where silence can imply a lack of ability to defend one's reputation).
  - nullc 6y ago
    I agree with what you're saying there, but instead of responding by apologizing people are often still better off by going on the attack, calling the allegations baseless nonsense, or personally attacking the people spreading them.
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      That works unless they aren't baseless nonsense.

adventured 6y ago

It always emboldens the mob. They aren't after an apology, they're pursuing harm against the target and typically won't stop until they get it - unless you can show strength to the bully behavior and can stand-off against them (which not everyone can do). If you can, they'll give up and pursue another easier target. The mobs have weaponized job firings, which puts most people in a position of immediate weakness where they're afraid to stand their ground.