7 ms·

It’s seems a rather peculiar definition of capitalism, if it emerged so late.

adamjb 6y ago
I'm using the standard definition of capitalism. E.g. Encyclopaedia Britannica dates "early capitalists" to 1500–1750. https://www.britannica.com/topic/capitalism https://www.britannica.com/topic/capitalism
- Retric 6y ago
  Agricultural Capitalism is listed as starting in 1350 by Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism But, it’s hard to pin down a date because individual ownership of the means of production is arguably the default state.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    >individual ownership of the means of production is arguably the default state. // Could you flesh out that argument because I'd imagine that co-operative ownership was essential to the rise of civilisation.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Tool use age by various animal species is generally used by the individuals that locate and or create the tools. Similarly the defense of hunting territory by individuals or families is another means of production. Complex social structures and collective ownership are very much the exception.
    - jevgeni 6y ago
      In very early stages, yes. Until humans figured out that ownership can be concentrated by using violence.
claudiawerner 6y ago
> It’s seems a rather peculiar definition of capitalism, if it emerged so late. It's really not; historians, anthropologists, sociologists, and philosophers generally point to a few key features of capitalism, and can date it quite well. Federici draws from that argument.
- jevgeni 6y ago
  Why would philosophers have a say in this? But point is, that question is far from settled. Especially if you consider the key features being the free market and private property, then capitalism goes far into BCE.
  - unixbeard1337 6y ago
    The key feature of capitalism is the economy is defined by capital, i.e. money that makes money, preferably at scale. That didn't exist in any sustained, important way until the early modern period in Europe.
    - jevgeni 6y ago
      The Roman Empire had a pretty thriving and developed usury economy, so I'm not sure why you think it's a modern thing. Also, just FYI: the term "capital" as used by economists doesn't mean money. It means ownership of means of production.
      - unixbeard1337 6y ago
        I was thinking of Roman moneylenders like Seneca as I wrote that. But they didn't lend money for "means of production" like steam engines etc. Everything was all slave power. But even if we allow Rome as capitalism (which I don't agree with, but fine) it still disappeared (again, at scale) for a millennium or two afterwards.
        jevgeni 6y ago
        Well, I'd argue that slaves were the means of production. But also things like olive oil presses. There's this example of an ancient Greek philosopher Thales essentially inventing the option derivative contract by buying the rights to use oil presses before the harvest for cheap, and charging a high price to use those presses once the harvest proved to be bountiful.[1] The dip in banking during the Dark Ages in Europe is mostly the effect of Christianity banning usury. But globally the practices didn't stop. I'm not sure, why it's important to show that capitalism a) equates to banking, and b) is some relatively late invention of the Western civilization. Because it's not in both cases. ___ [1] - https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-the-first-ever-options-trade-in-recorded-history-2012-3?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-the-first-ever-...

I'm using the standard definition of capitalism. E.g. Encyclopaedia Britannica dates "early capitalists" to 1500–1750. https://www.britannica.com/topic/capitalism https://www.britannica.com/topic/capitalism

Retric 6y ago
Agricultural Capitalism is listed as starting in 1350 by Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism But, it’s hard to pin down a date because individual ownership of the means of production is arguably the default state.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  >individual ownership of the means of production is arguably the default state. // Could you flesh out that argument because I'd imagine that co-operative ownership was essential to the rise of civilisation.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Tool use age by various animal species is generally used by the individuals that locate and or create the tools. Similarly the defense of hunting territory by individuals or families is another means of production. Complex social structures and collective ownership are very much the exception.
  - jevgeni 6y ago
    In very early stages, yes. Until humans figured out that ownership can be concentrated by using violence.

claudiawerner 6y ago

> It’s seems a rather peculiar definition of capitalism, if it emerged so late. It's really not; historians, anthropologists, sociologists, and philosophers generally point to a few key features of capitalism, and can date it quite well. Federici draws from that argument.

jevgeni 6y ago
Why would philosophers have a say in this? But point is, that question is far from settled. Especially if you consider the key features being the free market and private property, then capitalism goes far into BCE.
- unixbeard1337 6y ago
  The key feature of capitalism is the economy is defined by capital, i.e. money that makes money, preferably at scale. That didn't exist in any sustained, important way until the early modern period in Europe.
  - jevgeni 6y ago
    The Roman Empire had a pretty thriving and developed usury economy, so I'm not sure why you think it's a modern thing. Also, just FYI: the term "capital" as used by economists doesn't mean money. It means ownership of means of production.
    - unixbeard1337 6y ago
      I was thinking of Roman moneylenders like Seneca as I wrote that. But they didn't lend money for "means of production" like steam engines etc. Everything was all slave power. But even if we allow Rome as capitalism (which I don't agree with, but fine) it still disappeared (again, at scale) for a millennium or two afterwards.
      - jevgeni 6y ago
        Well, I'd argue that slaves were the means of production. But also things like olive oil presses. There's this example of an ancient Greek philosopher Thales essentially inventing the option derivative contract by buying the rights to use oil presses before the harvest for cheap, and charging a high price to use those presses once the harvest proved to be bountiful.[1] The dip in banking during the Dark Ages in Europe is mostly the effect of Christianity banning usury. But globally the practices didn't stop. I'm not sure, why it's important to show that capitalism a) equates to banking, and b) is some relatively late invention of the Western civilization. Because it's not in both cases. ___ [1] - https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-the-first-ever-options-trade-in-recorded-history-2012-3?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-the-first-ever-...