5 ms·

> some developers are betting that empty malls can mix housing with stores and community space. it was developers and city councils who caused this mess in the

> some developers are betting that empty malls can mix housing with stores and community space. it was developers and city councils who caused this mess in the first place. no one wanted to separate home and work / business / industry. no one except developers and auto manufacturers.

crmrc114 6y ago
Personally I like the suburbs and my cars.
- TremendousJudge 6y ago
  Congratulations. It is well known that the plural of "anecdote" is "data".
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't be a jerk in HN comments, even when someone else has a mere anecdote. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- kiba 6y ago
  Your car rides on public roads and the car you drive impose a cost on everyone else.
  - twblalock 6y ago
    Public transit also imposes a cost on everyone else -- most of it is subsidized by taxes and will never be profitable. Public roads and public transit are both funded by taxes, so I don't see why it would be right to use one but wrong to use the other.
    - danbolt 6y ago
      I think you could make an argument for the cost-effectiveness of transit and walkability compared to car culture. It lowers the base economic hurdle to be productive in society and is more environmentally friendly to boot. I think it's fine to enjoy public roads and driving a car as a personal activity, but I think it gets too much public funding as "the default" in North America. I'd rather my tax dollars go to a train line than a highway lane.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Most public transportation is partially subsidized in the US. Car owners are paying taxes to support public transportation via income tax, sales tax and/or a gas tax.
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      > Car owners are paying taxes to support public transportation via income tax, sales tax and/or a gas tax. I think you meant tax payers are paying taxes. Car owners are not some special class of citizen.
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      Roads and highways are also subsidized. Fuel taxes and vehicle fees would have to be raised substantially for drivers to pay their own way.
- eclipxe 6y ago
  +1, me too.
- axaxs 6y ago
  I do, if done right I guess. In my previous house, it definitely wasn't urban, but not what you'd think of as suburban, either. Lotsa smallish houses in neighborhoods with good yards on both sides of a central road, which had tons of small shops. You could walk to get basic groceries, vet, eye clinic, donuts, couple restaurants. It was very quaint and to me, perfect. However, I currently live in some monstrosity of a neighborhood that requires driving at least five minutes to get anywhere. This isn't the future, and I don't understand how people can stand it.
twblalock 6y ago
Lots of people wanted suburbs where they could live in quiet neighborhoods in detached homes with yards. That's why they exist and continue to be built. People also wanted to drive cars rather than take public transit. That was not a conspiracy by the auto manufacturers, it was just what people wanted. Ask around most suburbs and you'll learn that it is still what most people want today, especially once they have kids. I think suburbs are going to rise in status after the pandemic, especially if working from home becomes more common. People will want space, and they won't care about being located far from downtown if they don't need to commute. Plus, nobody really wants to use public transit during a pandemic and it will be a long time before people trust it again.
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago
  I prefer never going outside and getting everything delivered, but that also naturally privileges the suburbs because door delivery is so nice vs. dealing with mail rooms or meeting couriers downstairs. D:
  - gmantg 6y ago
    Some would call this a house arrest.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      Sounds like a reasonable sort of holiday to me.
- dathinab 6y ago
  > People also wanted to drive cars rather than take public transit. Do they? Or do they because of really shitty broken public transport. I know many people in Berlin who had or could have a car but dropped it because it is totally not worth it having one. (Through yes it's not a conspiracy, just very bad investments into public transport/infrastructure and a lot of lobbying often crippling approaches to improve public transit infrastructure.) > I think suburbs are going to rise in status after the pandemic [..] Even more a reason to interleave "non loud" industry with homes because then the people which can't work from home don't need to travel far. > Plus, nobody really wants to use public transit during a pandemic Even more a reason to interleave things as with that much shorter distances to work are possible and as such can reach it their work place by food or bicycle. Not a option in some climate areas but very well an option in others like in Berlin. > nobody really wants to use public transit during a pandemic Actually in many EU countries where public transit is normal it's still used. A bit less but still used frequently. People just wear mask and make sure to wash their hand when arriving. Furthermore I'm not aware of any Corona hot-spot caused by public transit, even through e.g. Berlin does much less for disinfecting trains then what I have heard what is done in some US cities. So my guess is that you might be right wrt. the US, but it's not a fundamental thing but more of a problem with cultural context, history and perspective.
dathinab 6y ago
> > some developers are betting that empty malls can mix housing with stores and community space. > it was developers and city councils who caused this mess in the first place. I never understood why the US and some other countries have such a strict separation between normal business/work areas and many EU cities do not have such a strict separation and it just works very well. Sure some industry which causes a lot of noise or other pollution is not allowed interleaved with housing and industries which need a lot of space tend to be outside of the city because of land cost. But everything else can nicely interleave. For example Berlin it's not uncommon to have small shops on the ground floor, some offices or doctors on the first floor and apartments above that. While many new buildings sadly don't have this anymore they still interleave shopping males, doctor houses and offices with apartment blocks.
- gbear605 6y ago
  That’s common in many places in the US, especially in older areas like New England.
  - dathinab 6y ago
    Nice to hear.
- CalRobert 6y ago
  Imagine you park on the street and don't pay for it. Now imagine I open a restaurant next door. Diners park on the street. All of a sudden you can't mooch off of public land to store your private property! Time to go shout at your planners about traffic and parking!
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    What strange invective. Residents of a city who own private property pay property taxes, sales taxes, and fuel taxes to build and maintain roads. The people they are "mooching off" are themselves. Likewise, if your city has set you up with some amenity like parking, and you plan your property purchase around it, and they take it away to give to someone else, it's quite reasonable to get mad — even if the use of that amenity was not specifically deeded to you as private property. There may be other concerns in a city to which they must yield, but it is hardly as if they are entitled freeloaders.
scarface74 6y ago
I’ve gone from a 750 square foot apartment (single), to a 3000 square foot house (married with a step child and then divorced), back to a 2300 square foot apartment (Married two stepchildren), back to a 3100 square foot house (married one son had moved out by then). I will never live in an apartment or any other attached dwelling again. - my mortgage is $2200 a month - soon to be $2600 when I refinance to a 15 year. - we have a separate guest suite with a bathroom for when my parents visit or if they have to ever move in with us. - a separate room that is now a study/studio for my wife’s online fitness classes - a bedroom converted to an office now that I work from home hopefully for the rest of my career. - a bedroom that we converted to a cardio room with a treadmill, elliptical, stationary bike and weights. - a bedroom for my son - a master suite for us. - a decent size family room and kitchen. Especially with Covid, this has been a lifesaver. I can’t imagine being stuck in an apartment right now. Even before my recent job change to working remotely for $BigTech and was just making an average salary for a software architect locally (east coast). The house was only 2x household income. In other words, any run of the mill developer could have afforded it.

crmrc114 6y ago

Personally I like the suburbs and my cars.

TremendousJudge 6y ago
Congratulations. It is well known that the plural of "anecdote" is "data".
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't be a jerk in HN comments, even when someone else has a mere anecdote. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
kiba 6y ago
Your car rides on public roads and the car you drive impose a cost on everyone else.
- twblalock 6y ago
  Public transit also imposes a cost on everyone else -- most of it is subsidized by taxes and will never be profitable. Public roads and public transit are both funded by taxes, so I don't see why it would be right to use one but wrong to use the other.
  - danbolt 6y ago
    I think you could make an argument for the cost-effectiveness of transit and walkability compared to car culture. It lowers the base economic hurdle to be productive in society and is more environmentally friendly to boot. I think it's fine to enjoy public roads and driving a car as a personal activity, but I think it gets too much public funding as "the default" in North America. I'd rather my tax dollars go to a train line than a highway lane.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Most public transportation is partially subsidized in the US. Car owners are paying taxes to support public transportation via income tax, sales tax and/or a gas tax.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    > Car owners are paying taxes to support public transportation via income tax, sales tax and/or a gas tax. I think you meant tax payers are paying taxes. Car owners are not some special class of citizen.
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Roads and highways are also subsidized. Fuel taxes and vehicle fees would have to be raised substantially for drivers to pay their own way.
eclipxe 6y ago
+1, me too.
axaxs 6y ago
I do, if done right I guess. In my previous house, it definitely wasn't urban, but not what you'd think of as suburban, either. Lotsa smallish houses in neighborhoods with good yards on both sides of a central road, which had tons of small shops. You could walk to get basic groceries, vet, eye clinic, donuts, couple restaurants. It was very quaint and to me, perfect. However, I currently live in some monstrosity of a neighborhood that requires driving at least five minutes to get anywhere. This isn't the future, and I don't understand how people can stand it.

twblalock 6y ago

Lots of people wanted suburbs where they could live in quiet neighborhoods in detached homes with yards. That's why they exist and continue to be built. People also wanted to drive cars rather than take public transit. That was not a conspiracy by the auto manufacturers, it was just what people wanted. Ask around most suburbs and you'll learn that it is still what most people want today, especially once they have kids. I think suburbs are going to rise in status after the pandemic, especially if working from home becomes more common. People will want space, and they won't care about being located far from downtown if they don't need to commute. Plus, nobody really wants to use public transit during a pandemic and it will be a long time before people trust it again.

shrimp_emoji 6y ago
I prefer never going outside and getting everything delivered, but that also naturally privileges the suburbs because door delivery is so nice vs. dealing with mail rooms or meeting couriers downstairs. D:
- gmantg 6y ago
  Some would call this a house arrest.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    Sounds like a reasonable sort of holiday to me.
dathinab 6y ago
> People also wanted to drive cars rather than take public transit. Do they? Or do they because of really shitty broken public transport. I know many people in Berlin who had or could have a car but dropped it because it is totally not worth it having one. (Through yes it's not a conspiracy, just very bad investments into public transport/infrastructure and a lot of lobbying often crippling approaches to improve public transit infrastructure.) > I think suburbs are going to rise in status after the pandemic [..] Even more a reason to interleave "non loud" industry with homes because then the people which can't work from home don't need to travel far. > Plus, nobody really wants to use public transit during a pandemic Even more a reason to interleave things as with that much shorter distances to work are possible and as such can reach it their work place by food or bicycle. Not a option in some climate areas but very well an option in others like in Berlin. > nobody really wants to use public transit during a pandemic Actually in many EU countries where public transit is normal it's still used. A bit less but still used frequently. People just wear mask and make sure to wash their hand when arriving. Furthermore I'm not aware of any Corona hot-spot caused by public transit, even through e.g. Berlin does much less for disinfecting trains then what I have heard what is done in some US cities. So my guess is that you might be right wrt. the US, but it's not a fundamental thing but more of a problem with cultural context, history and perspective.

dathinab 6y ago

> > some developers are betting that empty malls can mix housing with stores and community space. > it was developers and city councils who caused this mess in the first place. I never understood why the US and some other countries have such a strict separation between normal business/work areas and many EU cities do not have such a strict separation and it just works very well. Sure some industry which causes a lot of noise or other pollution is not allowed interleaved with housing and industries which need a lot of space tend to be outside of the city because of land cost. But everything else can nicely interleave. For example Berlin it's not uncommon to have small shops on the ground floor, some offices or doctors on the first floor and apartments above that. While many new buildings sadly don't have this anymore they still interleave shopping males, doctor houses and offices with apartment blocks.

gbear605 6y ago
That’s common in many places in the US, especially in older areas like New England.
- dathinab 6y ago
  Nice to hear.
CalRobert 6y ago
Imagine you park on the street and don't pay for it. Now imagine I open a restaurant next door. Diners park on the street. All of a sudden you can't mooch off of public land to store your private property! Time to go shout at your planners about traffic and parking!
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  What strange invective. Residents of a city who own private property pay property taxes, sales taxes, and fuel taxes to build and maintain roads. The people they are "mooching off" are themselves. Likewise, if your city has set you up with some amenity like parking, and you plan your property purchase around it, and they take it away to give to someone else, it's quite reasonable to get mad — even if the use of that amenity was not specifically deeded to you as private property. There may be other concerns in a city to which they must yield, but it is hardly as if they are entitled freeloaders.

scarface74 6y ago

I’ve gone from a 750 square foot apartment (single), to a 3000 square foot house (married with a step child and then divorced), back to a 2300 square foot apartment (Married two stepchildren), back to a 3100 square foot house (married one son had moved out by then). I will never live in an apartment or any other attached dwelling again. - my mortgage is $2200 a month - soon to be $2600 when I refinance to a 15 year. - we have a separate guest suite with a bathroom for when my parents visit or if they have to ever move in with us. - a separate room that is now a study/studio for my wife’s online fitness classes - a bedroom converted to an office now that I work from home hopefully for the rest of my career. - a bedroom that we converted to a cardio room with a treadmill, elliptical, stationary bike and weights. - a bedroom for my son - a master suite for us. - a decent size family room and kitchen. Especially with Covid, this has been a lifesaver. I can’t imagine being stuck in an apartment right now. Even before my recent job change to working remotely for $BigTech and was just making an average salary for a software architect locally (east coast). The house was only 2x household income. In other words, any run of the mill developer could have afforded it.