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Tell HN: Airbnb now opts in your name and photo to data sharing

• jdm2212 6y ago
  The bit about it being opt-out was surprising but not in any way "hidden". It's literally the first thing in the email after the explanation of what Project Lighthouse is.
  • addflip 6y ago
    I got this email and it was not exactly easy to turn it off considering I hadn't logged in to my Airbnb account in a while. Perhaps a better solution would have been to provide a click within the email that would allow you to turn it off from there.
    • dmode 6y ago
      There is a direct click on the email that leads you to the setting page. I am using a gmail client, so not sure if the link doesn’t appear in other emails
      • addflip 6y ago
        Yes. There is a link in the email that leads you to the settings page but I hadn't logged in a while so after entering my phone number along with the code they sent me I also had to enter a code they sent to my email. My point being that clicking the link in the email should automatically turn off the "feature" I shouldn't have to log in.
        • coolspot 6y ago
          My experience as well.
    • zentiggr 6y ago
      Or maybe even make the project, leave it off per user by default and include directions on how to opt in?
  • seppin 6y ago
    I don't read corporate newsletters from services I use twice a year, do you?
    • jdm2212 6y ago
      I always unsubscribe from corporate newsletters, so I don't get a whole lot of them. And in any case, this wasn't a corporate newsletter.
      • seppin 6y ago
        I delete any mail from Airbnb, Uber, etc that isn't a receipt for a service they provide. As do most people.
        • jdm2212 6y ago
          How would you want them to notify you of a substantive policy/TOS/etc change in order to ensure you see it?
          • meritganset 6y ago
            Alert me on the web page the first time I log into my account after the policy goes live.
            • seppin 6y ago
              Bingo.
              • jdm2212 6y ago
                I just logged into my Airbnb account and there's a notification about this policy change. It links to a page with the same text as the email notification. Notification text: "We’d like to use your information to help fight discrimination. Visit your Privacy settings to learn more or opt out."
• m0ck 6y ago
  Great, now the corporations found a way to virtue signal AND steal your privacy at the same time! /s
  • BoiledCabbage 6y ago
    I've recently come to the realization that more often than not people who use the phrase "virtual signal" is actually a really great signal in itself. Essentially a good chunk of people do care so little about discrimination, that it's difficult for them to believe that others actually even care about it. In this case, at it's face, to see a statement that Airbnb is collecting data to investigate if their platform is being used for discrimination - and then reach the conclusion that the most logical reason that Airbnb is collecting data is not because they want to know if their platform is being used to discriminate, but that instead it's just a ruse; they don't care and really just want to collect facial data in order to look like they care about discrimination to gain some side benefit. Somehow via reasoning to think that that was the most logical conclusion is pretty amazing. It conveys so frequently as: I care so little about discrimination that I can't even imagine that Airbnb actually wants data and cares about discrimination - there must be some other reason. And again, I can't make that conclusion about the statement above (because we've not discussed it), but from other discussions with people that's what surprisingly frequently ends up being the underlying thinking.
    • zebnyc 6y ago
      Do you think it is possible to be suspicious about the motivations of faceless corporations driven by a profit motive without be accused of "caring little about discrimination" / labelled as a racist / misogynist / anti-LGTBTQ?
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • deleted 6y ago
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      • BoiledCabbage 6y ago
• dmode 6y ago
  Your post is disingenuous. I got the same email and it very clearly lays out that you can opt out of the settings. This was not hidden in some obscure T&C. You can click the opt out link on the email directly and opt out.
  • newsbinator 6y ago
    I didn't get that email. This post (and the opt-out link OP shared) was the only reason I knew to turn this off.
    • neonate 6y ago
      Same here. That's bad. I would never have known about this otherwise.
  • advisedwang 6y ago
    I got the email and it was focused on: a) Saying this program was to fight discrimination, and b) Saying they weren't collecting new data or doing anything nefarious. What it left out was clearly explaining what they _were_ doing. I had to parse text carefully and use my own familiarity with the industry to understand that they were going to decide my race based on my photo/name. Without clearly explaining what the new data use is, you can't expect people to make an informed decision about opting-out.
    • addflip 6y ago
      > I had to parse text carefully and use my own familiarity with the industry to understand that they were going to decide my race based on my photo/name Yup. This is exactly what I took it as. Between this and their other data sharing policies I decided to delete my account.
    • dmode 6y ago
      Here’s the email copy. It very clearly states exactly what this is doing. Not sure what text you need to parse here “ We’ll only use information you already share This project will address discrimination that's based on perception—so we’ll use first names and profile photos from hosts and guests to help us understand the perceived race someone might associate with them. We’ll use it to uncover patterns of discrimination We’ll use this information to help us understand when and where racial discrimination is happening on our platform. Any insights will be used to help develop new features and policies that create a more equitable experience for everyone. Information won’t be tied to your specific account We know your privacy is important, so we analyze trends in bulk and Airbnb won’t associate perceived race information with your account. We won’t use this information in marketing or advertising, and it will only be used for anti-discrimination work. We consulted with and solicited input from leading civil rights and privacy organizations to guide us We know how delicate this work is—so we developed this work with support and input from leading civil rights organizations like Color Of Change and Upturn, along with privacy organizations like Center for Democracy & Technology, to make sure our approach is both thoughtful and respectful of your privacy. You can opt out in your Privacy Settimsg”
• dvt 6y ago
  Instantly disabled it, thank you for the heads up! Interestingly, I did not get an email that alerted me to the change.
  • whymauri 6y ago
    I didn't get one either.
    • seppin 6y ago
      Me neither, I had three settings I needed to "update" to prevent my image from being circulated without my approval. Bad form, Airbnb.
  • kuzee 6y ago
    I did get the email, fwiw. Thought it was pretty transparent, and clearly flagged how to opt-out. Email included link to their research paper on how they're doing it all.
• commoner 6y ago
  Airbnb also uses your personal information for direct marketing. You can opt out by sending an email to: opt-out@airbnb.com > Where permissible according to applicable law we may use certain limited personal information about you, such as your email address, to hash it and to share it with social media platforms, such as Facebook or Google, to generate leads, drive traffic to our websites or otherwise promote our products and services or the Airbnb Platform. > Please note that you may, at any time ask Airbnb to cease processing your data for these direct marketing purposes by sending an e-mail to opt-out@airbnb.com. > In some jurisdictions, applicable law may entitle you to require Airbnb and Airbnb Payments not to process your personal information for certain specific purposes (including profiling) where such processing is based on legitimate interest. > Where your personal information is processed for direct marketing purposes, you may, at any time ask Airbnb to cease processing your data for these direct marketing purposes by sending an e-mail to opt-out@airbnb.com. https://www.airbnb.com/terms/privacy_policy https://www.airbnb.com/terms/privacy_policy
  • seesaw 6y ago
    Here is a boilerplate you can copy/paste to email to the above ID: Hi Please do not use my information for any marketing purposes, and do not sell my information. I want to opt out of all the data sharing involving my data. I am sending you this email based on your documented policy referred below: Please note that you may, at any time ask Airbnb to cease processing your data for these direct marketing purposes by sending an e-mail to opt-out@airbnb.com.
    • wand3r 6y ago
      Thanks just sent.
    • throwaway888abc 6y ago
      >Here is a boilerplate you can copy/paste to email to the above ID: Very sad state of user friendliness. /rant Please, I beg you don't sell my info.
    • roryokane 6y ago
      Here is a boilerplate you can copy/paste if you don’t want to opt out of the “Project Lighthouse” discrimination study, but only out of data sharing for marketing purposes: Subject: Opt out of marketing for user <your-email> Please do not use my information for any marketing purposes, and do not sell my information. I am sending you this email based on your documented policy quoted below: > Please note that you may, at any time ask Airbnb to cease processing your data for these direct marketing purposes by sending an e-mail to opt-out@airbnb.com.
• gundmc 6y ago
  "So, to get these perceptions, we’ll share Airbnb profile photos and the first names associated with them with an independent partner that’s not part of Airbnb. " I have to imagine they considered making this opt-in and realized the vast majority of users wouldn't take action to increase sharing of their personal data. Despite the good cause, it is incredibly shady that they would implement this as an opt-out. IANAL, but I would think that this would be a flagrant violation of privacy laws in many regions outside the US (this policy is limited to US hosts and guests). Edit: I also did not receive an email, but found the toggle active in my account preferences after reading this post.
  • ibejoeb 6y ago
    It's only US users right now. Here's a more detailed announcement: https://www.airbnb.com/resources/hosting-homes/a/a-new-way-were-fighting-discrimination-on-airbnb-201 https://www.airbnb.com/resources/hosting-homes/a/a-new-way-w... Whatever good intention might be behind this, it's really off-putting to me. They send your photo and name to a third party who is tasked with evaluating those to determine your race. "will look at these photos and first names and indicate their perceptions—or, what race they think the information we shared suggests. They’ll share these perceptions with a specialized team at Airbnb exclusively for anti-discrimination work" Presumably that'll be correlated to booking data to identify rejections. I can't think of any other use case. Gotta say, if someone truly doesn't want me to stay somewhere because of my race, I'll take that rejection rather than force myself into a shitty situation.
    • ponker 6y ago
      Exactly! The AirBNB setup puts both parties in a vulnerable spot. If people are racist let them can my reservation, I don’t wanna see them either!
      • teej 6y ago
        This presumably helps Airbnb deplatform racist hosts, which is a better outcome in my opinion.
• dividuum 6y ago
  Seems GDPR prevents that in Europe. I see now such option at the linked url.
  • dgellow 6y ago
    Reading other comments, it seems to be US-only for now.
• Giorgi 6y ago
  That's weird, there is no "Project Lighthouse" option for me. Is it rolled out only in US?
  • ibejoeb 6y ago
    Yes, it's US-only now. FAQ: https://www.airbnb.com/resources/hosting-homes/a/a-new-way-were-fighting-discrimination-on-airbnb-201 https://www.airbnb.com/resources/hosting-homes/a/a-new-way-w...
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• ibejoeb 6y ago
  Also, it launched and the email was sent on 30 June. Who knows whether opting out after that has any effect, because it's not clear on what "launch" is in this circumstance. They might have sent all the data over on the 30th.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• deleted 6y ago
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• jimmaswell 6y ago
  Why do hosts even get to reject people or see their picture or even name before making the decision? I don't see any legitimate use, only illegitimate use like denying based on race. Let hosts set a minimum stay length and such if they want but that should be it.
  • namdnay 6y ago
    I guess it’s important to see the guest profile/history, you wouldn’t want to let people who have previously had problems into your home?
    • jlm451 6y ago
      Right, seeing a user's previous reviews by hosts makes sense. I would guess that having a name & face makes hosts more comfortable, although it does allow for discrimination?
  • bpodgursky 6y ago
    Wouldn't the picture be necessary if you want to make sure that the people who actually showed up are the same as the profile you OK'd to stay in the first place?
  • Ghjklov 6y ago
    If I see (in the photo/name) someone who has sexually assaulted me before, I'd like to be able to deny them from coming over to my house. Discrimination or not, people need to be allowed to deny people they would be uncomfortable with coming to their house. This is especially true for female hosts. My life > someone's hurt feelings that they don't get to Airbnb at my place
    • jimmaswell 6y ago
      This black swan event doesn't outweigh rampant discrimination to me. AirBnB could also just let you submit a list of specific people for this.
  • 236dev 6y ago
• theklub 6y ago
  Airbnb is quickly becoming an eBay. A product people hate but have little alternative to.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • dgellow 6y ago
    Hotels and hostels are still a thing.
• Zhenya 6y ago
  I'm torn. What's better: 1) agree to their new terms and then opt-out 2) specifically disagree to the new terms but not be able to opt-out? ?
  • RandomBacon 6y ago
    Contact their legal department directly with the combination of disagree and opt-out? I imagine they make it as hard as possible to do that.
• bmarquez 6y ago
  Account deleted. Honestly given the pandemic (variations of cleaning standards between homes and hotels, and increased pricing) this was an easy choice. From the email: "We know your privacy is important" Airbnb should prove it by making this opt-in instead of opt-out (and not hiding the choice with a bunch of boilerplate). I expect these dark patterns from a shadier website, not Airbnb. Edit: If you go through "Account settings" you are only given a choice to "deactivate" your account. To actually remove your information, go here: https://www.airbnb.com/privacy/manage-your-data https://www.airbnb.com/privacy/manage-your-data
  • akg_67 6y ago
    Did Airbnb confirm that they deleted account? They are using vague term “cancelled your account”. That is a fishy use of “cancel” word where “delete” should have been used. I don’t trust Airbnb.
    • bmarquez 6y ago
      On the very last page of the process it said Airbnb might need to contact me to prove I made the request. I don't trust them either, but it's certainly better than the "deactivation" they were pushing.
      • akg_67 6y ago
        I think it is still deactivation. Most companies don't delete accounts when you request to delete account, they only disable your access to account. So, before cancelling I prefer to go into account, remove as much info as possible and change all other info before requesting to delete account. AirBnb wouldn't even let me access my account until I accepted their new T&C and upon declining they just moved me to cancel account with no chance to make any changes to existing info.
        • camkego 6y ago
          If one lives in California with the CCPA, cannot one ask them to delete the data?
• bboyrival 6y ago
  There's a lot more nuance to this: https://www.airbnb.com/resources/hosting-homes/a/a-new-way-were-fighting-discrimination-on-airbnb-201 https://www.airbnb.com/resources/hosting-homes/a/a-new-way-w... I would also consider reading the white paper if you have some time: https://news.airbnb.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2020/06/Project-Lighthouse-Airbnb-2020-06-12.pdf?_ga=2.103819651.2088554614.1593815824-1752601650.1593815824 https://news.airbnb.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2020/06/P... TLDR is that that information is stripped of Airbnb identifying information, asymmetrically encrypted before perceived race is determined, then noise is added when the data is returned to Airbnb to prevent identifying individuals. This data is only used for identifying acceptance rate disparity.
  • AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > This data is only used for identifying acceptance rate disparity. Isn't that going to make it basically impossible to investigate false positives? This is already a huge problem with racial disparity numbers in general. If you don't account for things like income or education level you see huge racial disparities everywhere, but if you do they either get a lot smaller or go away entirely. It would be naive not to expect similar factors affecting housing determinations. You also have the problem that the average guest is going to stay for a few days, so even a listing that stays fully booked is going to have maybe a hundred guests a year. ~12% of the population is black, so that's about 12 people. How are they expecting to draw any meaningful conclusions from a sample size that small?
    • bboyrival 6y ago
      This is to measure the acceptance rate gap overall, not the gap for a specific host/guest/experience. Then, after changing the product, you can measure the gap post facto and see if you actually did anything. You can't change what you can't measure.
      • AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        But then what do you do with that if you don't understand the causes? It could be a systemic bias in your algorithm. It could be that the apparent disparity is just confounders you haven't accounted for. It could be that some of the hosts are overtly racist. It could be any combination of any of these. You can just A/B test it with random changes until it goes away, but that doesn't mean you solved the problem, only that you made the metric a target. If the problem is that some of the hosts are overtly racist, you could make the disparity go away by creating an algorithmic bias the other way, but that's only increasing the overall unfairness. The racists are still there harming the people they harm, then you introduce an additional harm to some entirely different innocent people in unrelated transactions. That doesn't help the people originally being harmed because the undue beneficiaries of your changes are completely different people who just happen to be the same race as the original victims, which makes the numbers balance even though overall unfairness has gone up rather than down. The equivalent of "solving" cops killing disproportionately many innocent black people by having the cops kill more innocent white people. Meanwhile if the problem was algorithmic bias to begin with then you still have to understand the specific means by which the bias operates, otherwise you're susceptible to doing the same thing. Your algorithm was improperly disadvantaging Chris to the benefit of Chaz, you modify it to additionally improperly disadvantage Anna to the benefit of Alicia, and now your numbers balance because Chaz and Anna are the same race and the harms cancel out for your metric, even though they don't cancel out in real life for the people affected because they're different people. And if the problem was that you weren't correctly accounting for confounders then there wasn't a real racial disparity there to begin with, and by making the un-adjusted numbers balance you created one. You have to actually understand the causes and mechanisms before you can devise a solution. Just having aggregate statistics doesn't do it. I'm inclined to think that it actually makes it worse, because then people only care about the statistics. But the statistics can show a disparity when everything is fine because it's just confounders, and the statistics can show balance when everything is not fine when you're making multiple errors in different directions that sum to zero in aggregate but not for the people affected.
• kamyarg 6y ago
  It took me some time to find it, so for people looking for it. Here is the link to page you can delete your account from. https://www.airbnb.com/privacy/manage-your-data https://www.airbnb.com/privacy/manage-your-data
• caseysoftware 6y ago
  They don't need that data anyway. I theorized about Airbnb inferring demographic information from Facebook likes in 2015 because it was trivially easy: https://caseysoftware.com/blog/social-apis-for-social-evil https://caseysoftware.com/blog/social-apis-for-social-evil It was confirmed they were doing it in 2018. If you used social login with them at all, they have all that info and they're supposed to delete it (according to Facebook's AUP) but effectively impossible to verify.
• gitgud 6y ago
  Is it normal for social media sharing to be on as well? I swear I didn't opt-in to this... https://i.imgur.com/6U8JiER.jpg https://i.imgur.com/6U8JiER.jpg