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Companies aren't the only entities allowed to publish content on the World Wide Web, you know. You're free to build whatever discussion platforms you like, or y

Companies aren't the only entities allowed to publish content on the World Wide Web, you know. You're free to build whatever discussion platforms you like, or you could just, y'know, publish a website.

daenz 6y ago
But then I control it and can deny the free speech of others. That's not what I'm asking for.
- generalk 6y ago
  Sure. If I own a website or a newspaper or the patch of ground in front of my house, I get to decide what information goes there. Are you arguing that there should be some legal provision that says anyone can publish anything on your website, or newspaper, or ground, and you don't get a say in it? That seems unreasonable.
  - daenz 6y ago
    I am arguing for a space online that is publicly owned, maintained by the government, easily accessible by your average person, with the same very few restrictions on free speech that exist in the real world.
    - generalk 6y ago
      I think that would be an interesting thing to have, and the implementation of it would have to solve a lot of issues (equal access to technology, etc) that need solving badly. I'm also glad we finally got to the actual thing you want to see change. Curious though: what would having this space solve?
      - daenz 6y ago
        >what would having this space solve? Is this a trick question? It guarantees that any marginalized people has access to communicate easily and freely to the general public, and it cannot be denied by anyone.
        generalk 6y ago
        No tricks, but I disagree with you here. A government-run, publicly owned online communication platform has several problems that prevent it from being the utopia you expect. 1. What value does it actually provide that Twitter and Reddit and Tumblr (and even Facebook) don't provide? I've learned more about marginalized communities both locally and globally on Twitter than I have anywhere else. Seems that they have a pretty decent platform today. 2. It's existence doesn't mean those platforms go away, so it by itself doesn't stop Facebook from doing the ridiculous things it's doing today. Folks may choose to patronize those private platforms over using the thing you describe. 3. Economically disadvantaged folks won't have access to it without a separate set of programs to ensure every household is connected to the Internet at a reasonable speed, and that they have the tech required to access it. (COVID-19 has laid bare the economic disparity even in my relatively affluent school district.) 4. Are we talking "run by the US"? If so: globally, marginalized people may not be able to communicate there due to policies from our government (which we can over time theoretically control) or their governments (which we cannot.) If not: who runs it then? 5. I think you'll find that the US government routinely denies people speech. Police violently responding to peaceful protests around the country is just one example. The US would definitely have to control for speech that violates US law, such as SESTA/FOSTA. 6. This is all ignoring the fact that people are people, and even the best examples of online communities have examples of folks being rejected by the dominant voices in the community irrespective of the rules. I think a public-owned online space is fascinating, but I don't think it'd be a magic bullet to solving these problems.
Crosseye_Jack 6y ago
While true if you run something small that goes unnoticed, we still have gatekeepers once you get to a certain size. Good luck taking payments if Mastercard blacklists you.
- generalk 6y ago
  I will definitely agree that payment processing is subject to limitations I don't agree with. Many adult-oriented websites have found it difficult to find payment processors, even when their businesses comply with the relevant laws. But if we're answering my original parent comment of "where can I speak freely online," we're probably not discussing payment processing.
marcosdumay 6y ago
> Companies aren't the only entities allowed to publish content on the World Wide Web Actually, the only entities with any capacity of publishing content on the WWW are a few tier 1 ISPs. If you push that rope you will discover that your capacity to publish anything you want is restricted by the policy of whoever hosts your servers, and their ISP, and their ISP's ISP. If the end-state of that evolution is every entity being completely free to decide what gets published on their private platform, that's a huge problem.
- deadmik3 6y ago
  > your capacity to publish anything you want is restricted by the policy of whoever hosts your servers, and their ISP, and their ISP's ISP. this is obvious and anyone still unironically pushing the "just make your own" narrative is aware of it but has no other comeback
  - generalk 6y ago
    Hi, it's me, unironically pushing the "just make your own" narrative. I posted a comment similar to this, but let me just lay cards on the table: if you want to publish child abuse images, or sell controlled substances, you're probably going to have a hard time finding hosting for that. Same if you want to publish content that violates US copyright law, which I agree with less but still applies. The original question was "where can I speak 'in the public domain' online," and I'm fairly sure my answer holds. Unless you were just trying to make some juvenile "any limits placed on my conduct online are invalid because Internet" argument, which I mean good luck with.
- generalk 6y ago
  > If you push that rope you will discover that your capacity to publish anything you want is restricted by the policy of whoever hosts your servers Fair enough. My original parent comment asked where you can speak freely online, which for the purposes of my argument I'm equating to US law regarding free speech. (This may not be the angle you're coming from.) Most hosts will allow you to publish things that fit that description. To take the examples given in this thread: if you want to publish an image of the Confederate flag, or publish something and not have Twitter or Facebook placing ropes around your content, publishing your own website is going to solve that problem for you. Now, you're not wrong, there are limits to that, but I'm struggling to find out how those limits apply to this conversation in any realistic way.

daenz 6y ago

But then I control it and can deny the free speech of others. That's not what I'm asking for.

generalk 6y ago
Sure. If I own a website or a newspaper or the patch of ground in front of my house, I get to decide what information goes there. Are you arguing that there should be some legal provision that says anyone can publish anything on your website, or newspaper, or ground, and you don't get a say in it? That seems unreasonable.
- daenz 6y ago
  I am arguing for a space online that is publicly owned, maintained by the government, easily accessible by your average person, with the same very few restrictions on free speech that exist in the real world.
  - generalk 6y ago
    I think that would be an interesting thing to have, and the implementation of it would have to solve a lot of issues (equal access to technology, etc) that need solving badly. I'm also glad we finally got to the actual thing you want to see change. Curious though: what would having this space solve?
    - daenz 6y ago
      >what would having this space solve? Is this a trick question? It guarantees that any marginalized people has access to communicate easily and freely to the general public, and it cannot be denied by anyone.
      - generalk 6y ago
        No tricks, but I disagree with you here. A government-run, publicly owned online communication platform has several problems that prevent it from being the utopia you expect. 1. What value does it actually provide that Twitter and Reddit and Tumblr (and even Facebook) don't provide? I've learned more about marginalized communities both locally and globally on Twitter than I have anywhere else. Seems that they have a pretty decent platform today. 2. It's existence doesn't mean those platforms go away, so it by itself doesn't stop Facebook from doing the ridiculous things it's doing today. Folks may choose to patronize those private platforms over using the thing you describe. 3. Economically disadvantaged folks won't have access to it without a separate set of programs to ensure every household is connected to the Internet at a reasonable speed, and that they have the tech required to access it. (COVID-19 has laid bare the economic disparity even in my relatively affluent school district.) 4. Are we talking "run by the US"? If so: globally, marginalized people may not be able to communicate there due to policies from our government (which we can over time theoretically control) or their governments (which we cannot.) If not: who runs it then? 5. I think you'll find that the US government routinely denies people speech. Police violently responding to peaceful protests around the country is just one example. The US would definitely have to control for speech that violates US law, such as SESTA/FOSTA. 6. This is all ignoring the fact that people are people, and even the best examples of online communities have examples of folks being rejected by the dominant voices in the community irrespective of the rules. I think a public-owned online space is fascinating, but I don't think it'd be a magic bullet to solving these problems.

Crosseye_Jack 6y ago

While true if you run something small that goes unnoticed, we still have gatekeepers once you get to a certain size. Good luck taking payments if Mastercard blacklists you.

generalk 6y ago
I will definitely agree that payment processing is subject to limitations I don't agree with. Many adult-oriented websites have found it difficult to find payment processors, even when their businesses comply with the relevant laws. But if we're answering my original parent comment of "where can I speak freely online," we're probably not discussing payment processing.

marcosdumay 6y ago

> Companies aren't the only entities allowed to publish content on the World Wide Web Actually, the only entities with any capacity of publishing content on the WWW are a few tier 1 ISPs. If you push that rope you will discover that your capacity to publish anything you want is restricted by the policy of whoever hosts your servers, and their ISP, and their ISP's ISP. If the end-state of that evolution is every entity being completely free to decide what gets published on their private platform, that's a huge problem.

deadmik3 6y ago
> your capacity to publish anything you want is restricted by the policy of whoever hosts your servers, and their ISP, and their ISP's ISP. this is obvious and anyone still unironically pushing the "just make your own" narrative is aware of it but has no other comeback
- generalk 6y ago
  Hi, it's me, unironically pushing the "just make your own" narrative. I posted a comment similar to this, but let me just lay cards on the table: if you want to publish child abuse images, or sell controlled substances, you're probably going to have a hard time finding hosting for that. Same if you want to publish content that violates US copyright law, which I agree with less but still applies. The original question was "where can I speak 'in the public domain' online," and I'm fairly sure my answer holds. Unless you were just trying to make some juvenile "any limits placed on my conduct online are invalid because Internet" argument, which I mean good luck with.
generalk 6y ago
> If you push that rope you will discover that your capacity to publish anything you want is restricted by the policy of whoever hosts your servers Fair enough. My original parent comment asked where you can speak freely online, which for the purposes of my argument I'm equating to US law regarding free speech. (This may not be the angle you're coming from.) Most hosts will allow you to publish things that fit that description. To take the examples given in this thread: if you want to publish an image of the Confederate flag, or publish something and not have Twitter or Facebook placing ropes around your content, publishing your own website is going to solve that problem for you. Now, you're not wrong, there are limits to that, but I'm struggling to find out how those limits apply to this conversation in any realistic way.