6 ms·

This study mirrors others, namely, police shooting are rare and don't show racial bias in the aggregate, and usually are 'justified' in some form (i.e. aren't a

This study mirrors others, namely, police shooting are rare and don't show racial bias in the aggregate, and usually are 'justified' in some form (i.e. aren't a very clear case of wrong doing like the George Floyd case). It isn't great for police reform policy, because you don't have metrics to judge success or aspire to. Having said that, this is an emotional issue and does need some solution. There was a recent article about a black Google VP who was hiding in her office when there was some sort of active-shooter threat on the YouTube campus. She was as much afraid of being shot by this threat, as she was of mistakenly being shot by a police SWAT team... that's a real fear in a person of privilege (highly educated and positioned high in a Fortune 500 corporate hierarchy) and that's not good. There is a lot of trust that needs to be regained that all the calls to 'defund the police' miss. Maybe we need more funding (not less), for things like training in community interactions and deescalation. Why not have police officer spend 1 day out of every month, doing some sort of simulation training on deescalation and community outreach and .. heck .. 'customer service' - it's going to be expensive, but social strife is expensive too.

jacobush 6y ago
I especially wonder what qualifies as "justified". The statistics can be only as good as the source data.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  Particularly when dead men tell no tales.
- Agenttin 6y ago
  It's telling how many "justified" shooting have had video evidence come out afterwards that directly contradict the police report. The question isn't whether the police lie and plant evidence, it's how often do the police lie and plant evidence.
mc32 6y ago
There is definitely room for improvement (de-escalation) and less aggressive approach towards people who are not being aggressive (but may be playing dumb and other irksome attitudes). And also better understanding of “unstable” subjects —“oftentimes” the police shoot at provocation that doesn’t pose immediate harm [if someone waves a knife, back up 20 feet]. Also sentencing reforms are needed as well as more effort into rehabilitation and preparation to become contributing members of society for non violent felons. On the other hand the issue is way over politicized and then you have opportunists who use this as an excuse to agitate and cause rioting and looting (as opposed to political protesting). Moreover there is a coöpting of the movement by totally unaffected people (non-black non-poor whites) and its to the point in LA inner city “gangs” run off the middle class protesters/agitators because they don’t find affinity in them.
xorfish 6y ago
Police killings in the US are around 40 times higher per capita than in the rest of the developed world. Murder Rate is also around 5 times higher than in the rest of the developed world. Clearly this are problems that needs to be addressed. My opinion is, that the first step to solve this issue are good safety nets for everyone. Sentence lengths need to be reduced and victimless crimes should not be punished. The prison system must be rebuild from the ground up to reintegrate offenders to reduce the risk of re-offending. Police training needs to be improved as well. It can't be that two sober cops end up shooting a drunk that is sobering up in his car in the back because they are unable to handle such a ordinary situation.
- asdkhadsj 6y ago
  I'm also curious about metrics on racial bias of police. From what I've seen (in other studies, I've not yet looked at this one) shootings don't look immediately biased. However I often hear how biased police are in their attention towards minorities. But I'm unsure how to quantify that, or what metrics we can use to research that.
- twsttest 6y ago
  Is selling or buying drugs a "victimless crime" when people's lives, families and communities are destroyed by said drugs? What exactly is a "victimless crime" then? Your characterization of the recent killing of Mr. Brooks is incomplete. Brooks fought against the police and fired a taser (a deadly weapon according to the Atlanta DA) at the officers giving him chase. They were absolutely justified in shooting him. The problem we have in America is that many people think it's ok to fight the police. Almost all publicized police killings in recent years are a result of suspects resisting arrest in a violent manner, escalating things to the point where force is required to control them. Of course this doesn't fit the narrative, so it's ignored.
  - xorfish 6y ago
    So the taser is deadly? Why was it pulled in the first place? How many times can a taser be fired? Brooks is running away, are you seriously suggesting that he posed a serious thread to the officers? Nevertheless, the incident shows at best how grossly incompetent the police in the US are,however manslaughter is certainly also a reasonable interpretation. Alcohol is the most dangerous drug. Are merchants responsible if they sell alcohol?
bitcurious 6y ago
> She was as much afraid of being shot by this threat, as she was of mistakenly being shot by a police SWAT team... When we underwent active shooter training at work, part of it was dedicated to how to behave if/when there is a police response. Fear is unfortunate but being acutely aware of your actions in a situation like that is down right responsible.
disantlor 6y ago
Even if the studies show no clear bias (the article mentions some criticism and a forthcoming reassessment of the data based on that) the problem clearly extends all the way down to the most minor of police interactions where it becomes harder and harder to explain away. I think theres a certain set of people who hear "no statistical proof of bias, and emotional issues arent real issues"... so while I agree with you, I just want to emphasize the huge space of systematic problems that cause the emotional issue.
Agenttin 6y ago
How the police have responded to the protests is by itself indicative of a problem. Responding to accusations of police brutality with televised beatings is so tone deaf that it must speak to an institutional issue. If there were no evidence of police brutality, except for video taken in the past few weeks, It would still be enough evidence for reform.
- mc32 6y ago
  I don’t think this behavior is particular to US policing [French police vs Yellow vests, Greek police vs anti austerity marxists, Korean police vs protesters, etc]. Yes there is room for improvement but also this result is predictable in this kind of antagonistic interaction. It’s like treating disease with radiology, you cannot avoid some of the accompanying risks . They may be minimized but not eliminated. It’s like teenagers and parents. It will result in rebellion, it’s part of that relationship.
commandlinefan 6y ago
> as she was of mistakenly being shot by a police SWAT team But the study suggests that this fear, while real, is misguided: she's getting this from sensationalized news reporting and hyperbolic movies/television rather than anything based in reality.
- _jal 6y ago
  It may be a fear that is not statistically supported, but claiming it is not "based on reality" is, well, not based in reality. This does happen: https://www.npr.org/2018/11/13/667252788/police-fatally-shoot-black-security-guard-who-detained-suspected-shooter https://www.npr.org/2018/11/13/667252788/police-fatally-shoo...
  - CompanionCuuube 6y ago
    That's also a completely different circumstance to what she found herself in.
    - _jal 6y ago
      Right, because humans in fear always carefully consider all aspects of a situation under time pressure, with perfect recall of details they read in the news. I'm sure you'll appreciate people splitting hairs to critique your rationality and recall under pressure next time you react to something.
      - CompanionCuuube 6y ago
        That's a lot of words to concede that it wasn't based on reality, as the other poster said. :)
        _jal 6y ago
        I conceded no such thing.
Udik 6y ago
> It isn't great for police reform policy, because you don't have metrics to judge success or aspire to. I feel that the idea of a racial bias behind police killings in the US is misguided. The issue exists, but as this study seems to prove, it's not an issue of police killing too many blacks- the issue is of police killing too easily. This simply doesn't happen in other countries. If you approach the problem as one of racial bias, while still expecting police officers to escalate confrontations and meet any potential threat with lethal force- which is the real issue IMO- then the problem is never going to be solved.
simion314 6y ago
Transparency should be an important step, often time the body cameras were not on or the videos were lost. There also seems a lot of cops covering their mistakes so more transparency and fairness could help with trust.
jpgreens 6y ago
Accept the facts. It's not an emotional issue, you just made it one.
collyw 6y ago
Sam Harris did an excellent podcast (in my opinion) touching on the topics you mentioned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU or text https://samharris.org/can-pull-back-brink/ https://samharris.org/can-pull-back-brink/
raxxorrax 6y ago
There are people being fired for doing studies like this, I think there was a case in the UK. A review of the decision process that led to these cases is also sensible, otherwise any discourse is quite difficult. I would caution with attaching privilege to anyone. We have seen Harvard graduates accusing people of profiting from privilege while having day-to-day wage-jobs. If the concept is too complicated for "elite"-graduates, it probably doesn't help in a general discussion. Especially not if the topic is emotional as you said. I think more funding for better training is indeed a good idea. That police officers are accused of murder by shooting someone resisting arrest and shooting back is also a catastrophe. We also have seen people cooperating being shot. These should be handled differently of course.
mcfunk 6y ago
you cite "very clear case of wrong doing like the George Floyd case," but the only reason that is clear is because of civilian video recording. Here is how the police described it in the official MPD report: "Two officers arrived and located the suspect, a male believed to be in his 40s, in his car. He was ordered to step from his car. After he got out, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later."

jacobush 6y ago

I especially wonder what qualifies as "justified". The statistics can be only as good as the source data.

nmfisher 6y ago
Particularly when dead men tell no tales.
Agenttin 6y ago
It's telling how many "justified" shooting have had video evidence come out afterwards that directly contradict the police report. The question isn't whether the police lie and plant evidence, it's how often do the police lie and plant evidence.

mc32 6y ago

There is definitely room for improvement (de-escalation) and less aggressive approach towards people who are not being aggressive (but may be playing dumb and other irksome attitudes). And also better understanding of “unstable” subjects —“oftentimes” the police shoot at provocation that doesn’t pose immediate harm [if someone waves a knife, back up 20 feet]. Also sentencing reforms are needed as well as more effort into rehabilitation and preparation to become contributing members of society for non violent felons. On the other hand the issue is way over politicized and then you have opportunists who use this as an excuse to agitate and cause rioting and looting (as opposed to political protesting). Moreover there is a coöpting of the movement by totally unaffected people (non-black non-poor whites) and its to the point in LA inner city “gangs” run off the middle class protesters/agitators because they don’t find affinity in them.

xorfish 6y ago

Police killings in the US are around 40 times higher per capita than in the rest of the developed world. Murder Rate is also around 5 times higher than in the rest of the developed world. Clearly this are problems that needs to be addressed. My opinion is, that the first step to solve this issue are good safety nets for everyone. Sentence lengths need to be reduced and victimless crimes should not be punished. The prison system must be rebuild from the ground up to reintegrate offenders to reduce the risk of re-offending. Police training needs to be improved as well. It can't be that two sober cops end up shooting a drunk that is sobering up in his car in the back because they are unable to handle such a ordinary situation.

asdkhadsj 6y ago
I'm also curious about metrics on racial bias of police. From what I've seen (in other studies, I've not yet looked at this one) shootings don't look immediately biased. However I often hear how biased police are in their attention towards minorities. But I'm unsure how to quantify that, or what metrics we can use to research that.
twsttest 6y ago
Is selling or buying drugs a "victimless crime" when people's lives, families and communities are destroyed by said drugs? What exactly is a "victimless crime" then? Your characterization of the recent killing of Mr. Brooks is incomplete. Brooks fought against the police and fired a taser (a deadly weapon according to the Atlanta DA) at the officers giving him chase. They were absolutely justified in shooting him. The problem we have in America is that many people think it's ok to fight the police. Almost all publicized police killings in recent years are a result of suspects resisting arrest in a violent manner, escalating things to the point where force is required to control them. Of course this doesn't fit the narrative, so it's ignored.
- xorfish 6y ago
  So the taser is deadly? Why was it pulled in the first place? How many times can a taser be fired? Brooks is running away, are you seriously suggesting that he posed a serious thread to the officers? Nevertheless, the incident shows at best how grossly incompetent the police in the US are,however manslaughter is certainly also a reasonable interpretation. Alcohol is the most dangerous drug. Are merchants responsible if they sell alcohol?

bitcurious 6y ago

> She was as much afraid of being shot by this threat, as she was of mistakenly being shot by a police SWAT team... When we underwent active shooter training at work, part of it was dedicated to how to behave if/when there is a police response. Fear is unfortunate but being acutely aware of your actions in a situation like that is down right responsible.

disantlor 6y ago

Even if the studies show no clear bias (the article mentions some criticism and a forthcoming reassessment of the data based on that) the problem clearly extends all the way down to the most minor of police interactions where it becomes harder and harder to explain away. I think theres a certain set of people who hear "no statistical proof of bias, and emotional issues arent real issues"... so while I agree with you, I just want to emphasize the huge space of systematic problems that cause the emotional issue.

Agenttin 6y ago

How the police have responded to the protests is by itself indicative of a problem. Responding to accusations of police brutality with televised beatings is so tone deaf that it must speak to an institutional issue. If there were no evidence of police brutality, except for video taken in the past few weeks, It would still be enough evidence for reform.

mc32 6y ago
I don’t think this behavior is particular to US policing [French police vs Yellow vests, Greek police vs anti austerity marxists, Korean police vs protesters, etc]. Yes there is room for improvement but also this result is predictable in this kind of antagonistic interaction. It’s like treating disease with radiology, you cannot avoid some of the accompanying risks . They may be minimized but not eliminated. It’s like teenagers and parents. It will result in rebellion, it’s part of that relationship.

commandlinefan 6y ago

> as she was of mistakenly being shot by a police SWAT team But the study suggests that this fear, while real, is misguided: she's getting this from sensationalized news reporting and hyperbolic movies/television rather than anything based in reality.

_jal 6y ago
It may be a fear that is not statistically supported, but claiming it is not "based on reality" is, well, not based in reality. This does happen: https://www.npr.org/2018/11/13/667252788/police-fatally-shoot-black-security-guard-who-detained-suspected-shooter https://www.npr.org/2018/11/13/667252788/police-fatally-shoo...
- CompanionCuuube 6y ago
  That's also a completely different circumstance to what she found herself in.
  - _jal 6y ago
    Right, because humans in fear always carefully consider all aspects of a situation under time pressure, with perfect recall of details they read in the news. I'm sure you'll appreciate people splitting hairs to critique your rationality and recall under pressure next time you react to something.
    - CompanionCuuube 6y ago
      That's a lot of words to concede that it wasn't based on reality, as the other poster said. :)
      - _jal 6y ago
        I conceded no such thing.

Udik 6y ago

> It isn't great for police reform policy, because you don't have metrics to judge success or aspire to. I feel that the idea of a racial bias behind police killings in the US is misguided. The issue exists, but as this study seems to prove, it's not an issue of police killing too many blacks- the issue is of police killing too easily. This simply doesn't happen in other countries. If you approach the problem as one of racial bias, while still expecting police officers to escalate confrontations and meet any potential threat with lethal force- which is the real issue IMO- then the problem is never going to be solved.

simion314 6y ago

Transparency should be an important step, often time the body cameras were not on or the videos were lost. There also seems a lot of cops covering their mistakes so more transparency and fairness could help with trust.

jpgreens 6y ago

Accept the facts. It's not an emotional issue, you just made it one.

collyw 6y ago

Sam Harris did an excellent podcast (in my opinion) touching on the topics you mentioned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU or text https://samharris.org/can-pull-back-brink/ https://samharris.org/can-pull-back-brink/

raxxorrax 6y ago

There are people being fired for doing studies like this, I think there was a case in the UK. A review of the decision process that led to these cases is also sensible, otherwise any discourse is quite difficult. I would caution with attaching privilege to anyone. We have seen Harvard graduates accusing people of profiting from privilege while having day-to-day wage-jobs. If the concept is too complicated for "elite"-graduates, it probably doesn't help in a general discussion. Especially not if the topic is emotional as you said. I think more funding for better training is indeed a good idea. That police officers are accused of murder by shooting someone resisting arrest and shooting back is also a catastrophe. We also have seen people cooperating being shot. These should be handled differently of course.

mcfunk 6y ago

you cite "very clear case of wrong doing like the George Floyd case," but the only reason that is clear is because of civilian video recording. Here is how the police described it in the official MPD report: "Two officers arrived and located the suspect, a male believed to be in his 40s, in his car. He was ordered to step from his car. After he got out, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later."