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Hong Kong: UK makes citizenship offer to residents
- tobzuts 6y agoTypical shoddy journalism. Bandies numbers about: '150.000', 'up to 3 million' , when talking about the numbers likely to qualify to come to UK but never actually tells us what the population of Hong Kong is in the first place. So is this everyone?... 50% of the population?... 25%?.. 10%?...
- dan1234 6y agoA quick Google would tell you the population of Hong Kong is 7,500,700 (2019 estimate).
- spuz 6y agoThe point is that from a journalistic point of view the number of people eligible for citizenship is meaningless without the context of either the population of Hong Kong or of the UK or perhaps the number of immigrants the UK typically sees from Hong Kong and other countries. It's very common in articles to see numbers that have no meaning without context. Either the context should be provided or the numbers should not be mentioned.
- spacehunt 6y agoBut even the Home Office doesn't know the exact number. They know how many current BN(O) holders there are. But they don't know how many are eligible exactly -- they have the entire list of people who have received one, but that's over 20 years ago, and a lot could have happened to them since.
- qubex 6y agoHelpful hint: I find it very telling to mentally replace “up to” with “at most”. It’s the exact same inequality but sometimes (though not always) totally changes the emotional tone of a piece. The other thing is it never ceases to highlight the need for a lower bound. I think journalists (whether deliberately or unconsciously I cannot say, besides it isn’t relevant) use the term “up to X” to simultaneously proclaim the worst-case scenario AND use it to anchor your expectations (basically you become convinced that the worst case scenario is the most likely outcome because that’s the only information you have, whereas if you tell yourself “up to X” you immediately ask yourself “yeah okay but starting from what?” and the lack of knowledge is at least made explicit).
- nieksand 6y agoThis article lists some key provisions from the Chinese Communist Party's security law: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52765838 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52765838
- monkeypizza 6y agoSome real kickers in here: * Beijing will establish a new security office in Hong Kong, with its own law enforcement personnel - neither of which would come under the local authority's jurisdiction * This office can send some cases to be tried in mainland China - but Beijing has said it will only have that power over a "tiny number" of cases * Beijing will have power over how the law should be interpreted, not any Hong Kong judicial or policy body. If the law conflicts with any Hong Kong law, the Beijing law takes priority
- nieksand 6y agoAdvocating for Hong Kong independence can also earn you a life sentence: "Crimes of secession, subversion, terrorism and collusion with foreign forces are punishable by a maximum sentence of life in prison" I'm not sure if criticizing Chairman Xi or the CCP would qualify as subversion.
- entropea 6y agoAren't there also similar laws like that in USA? People are being recommended life sentences for throwing a molotov at an empty police vehicle during these George Floyd protests and are being labeled as terrorists by Trump. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/brooklyn-molotov-lawyers-protests/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/brooklyn-molotov-lawyers-p...
- derision 6y agoGood. I don't care if it's a police car or someone's personal car or an empty cardboard box. If you're throwing around molotov cocktails you should go to jail.
- ericmay 6y agoUS has as well to some extent [1]. I hope the entire Anglosphere follows suit (CAN/AUS/NZ). [1]https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-police-make-first-security-law-arrest-as-thousands-protest-11593591072?mod=hp_lead_pos1 https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-police-make-first-sec...
- jeffsboi 6y agoThe word anglosphere sounds a little bit racist. black people are also here in america since the beginning.
- Veen 6y agoAnglosphere means English-speaking nations, largely those with historical connections to the UK. It has nothing to do with race.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ochoseis 6y agoCan’t tell if you’re trolling, but I believe Anglosphere refers to countries that use the English language, not ones with Anglo people.
- ronsor 6y agoThe word just means "English-speaking countries."
- akerro 6y agoIs this an attempt to fill immigration gaps after EU immigration collapses? I don't believe the government actually cares about anything that going on in HK.
- whatshisface 6y agoDoes it matter? The UK needs skilled workers and HKers need a place to live that won't try to kill them.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- toyg 6y agoI wouldn't be surprised if the government thought exactly that, but I don't think it would work - HKers are mostly urban and well-educated, especially the politicized groups that are worried by Chinese rule. It's unlikely they will happily accept to become an underclass. Still, it is the decent thing to do. It also underlines once again this country has no real power or influence left in the superpower age. Before, we could at least try to get the EU to go to bat for our interests, and have a real impact. We have none of that now, which is probably part of the reason the Chinese accelerated the process.
- blibble 6y ago> Before, we could at least try to get the EU to go to bat for our interests, and have a real impact. the same EU that rewrote its coronavirus report several times in fear of CCP repercussions? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/europe/disinformation-china-eu-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/europe/disinformati... come on
- toyg 6y agoI did say "try". Now we cannot even try, and stuff like this happens.
- whatshisface 6y agoIf I was China, I would love for the US and the UK to take the law-aware and dissident people off my hands.
- joaomacp 6y agoPretty soon the law-abiding and obedient people will become aware that life outside of authoritarianism is better and safer, and they will either run away or revolt.
- mlnj 6y agoAnd they'll be even more weakened because they are fewer in numbers.
- entropea 6y agoThis is exactly why I'm trying to move out of the USA.
- derision 6y agoBecause of the rise of the authoritarian left spreading fear across the country with violence and looting?
- entropea 6y agoNo, the authoritarian right which includes US liberals. The left doesn't even exist worldwide except in extremely small insignificant numbers pumped up by media to create new red scare conditions among the population. The left has been crushed for the last 40+ years by the authoritarian right and has absolutely no backbone. The authoritarian right runs the gig, the authoritarian right creates the violence. Edit: DSA, arguably the USA's largest, most mainstream true left group is only ~65,000 members across the nation. Quite tiny. I've been to bigger soccer matches. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/dsa-growing-during-coronavirus/611599/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/dsa-gro...
- alt_f6 6y agoWhy would they want to move to the declining country that is the UK.
- chrisseaton 6y agoI don't know if you aren't aware of the history - Hong Kong was a British colony until on this day in 1997. Many people in Hong Kong have very strong connections to the former Empire - many people married, there were many social, cultural, military connections, and so on.
- alt_f6 6y agoSure, but is nostalgia enough to move from a very advanced, high-tech city and highly educated society, to one where several dozen people are knifed in the capital every day and there isn't even AC in the tube in the summer, so people are collapsing from heat stroke.
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- justinclift 6y agoWonder how many of the eligible people are TSMC employees or contractors? :)
- zaxu 6y agoYou're thinking of a different country.
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoThe CPP would like to have a word with you for referring to Taiwan as a “different country”
- prewett 6y agoThey need to stop strong-arming the rest of us into accepting their made-up-reality. They can live in fantasy land if they want, but they don't get to make me live in their fantasy.
- spacehunt 6y agoCongratulations, you've just violated the brand-new HK National Security Law, which according to article 38 applies to everyone on Earth.
- justinclift 6y agoDuh. Of course. Should get coffee before reading HN. ;)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- sct202 6y agoIt's interesting to see how proactive a lot of developed countries are being with getting ready to welcome refugees from Hong Kong, especially compared to the Syrian crisis a few years ago.
- Veen 6y agoThe UK in particular has a long historical relationship with Hong Kong. Plus, China is in clear breach of bilateral agreements with Britain.
- derision 6y agoNot surprisingly, China has clearly breached almost any agreement they've made with the rest of the developed world since they've starting making agreements
- eggsnbacon1 6y agoHong Kong was a British colony for generations and is still strongly influenced by western culture. Probably why China has such an obsession with crushing it. Adopting HK citizens is a far easier sell than Syrians. They already speak English, are highly educated, wealthy, westernized, and have special status in UK law. Letting a ton of refugees in is a large burden on the host country. They don't share British culture and values, tend to have no education or marketable skills, are in poor health, don't speak the language, need a lot of government support, and depress wages for already poor citizens of the host country. It should still be done for humanitarian reasons but there's a lot of pushback from citizens for reasonable concerns.
- crobertsbmw 6y agoAfter reading Open Borders by Bryan Cahlan, I’m convinced that if there is a burden on the host country it’s temporary. Long term, I think the host country has much more to gain than to lose.
- eggsnbacon1 6y ago
- daemin 6y agoI would have said that returning Hong Kong back to China was one of the biggest mistakes the UK has made, but here we are in 2020. It would have been better if they made it into an independent city state like Singapore.
- swarnie_ 6y agoIf you don't return something at the end of a contract is that theft? or piracy? Its not like the UK had a choice. We're you expecting them to go all Hawaii on the situation and just annex it?
- delecti 6y agoThe government they made the contract with didn't even exist anymore. The Qing Empire made that contract with the UK. Independence or just keeping HK in the UK both make at least as much sense as giving it to a country that didn't even exist when the contract was formed.
- throwaway1997 6y agoIt may have made sense technically but China has a huge army and HK is dependent on water, electricity and food which comes from the mainland. The mainland government made very clear that if HK wasn't returned, they would cut off the water supply.
- delecti 6y agoThat's a separate issue though. That China had the military might to take HK doesn't mean they were the legitimate government to have HK returned to. It's not stealing from China to not give them something taken from someone else.
- free_rms 6y agoThe UK running HK in the first place was stealing from China. They originally got it as part of the peace settlement from the Opium Wars, then signed the 99-year lease later when the Qing empire was in terminal decline and unable to resist.
- Ritsuko_akagi 6y ago> About 350,000 UK passport holders, and 2.6 million others eligible, will be able to come to the UK for five years. Hong kong has a population of over 7 mil so this is less than half. What's the criteria for this chance at a uk citizenship? I found a good video about the special passports given to hong kong from the uk. It is a bit complicated but this video seems to summarise the important bits quite well.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9XB3JIa0o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9XB3JIa0o
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- throwaway1997 6y agoThe summary is that before the handover in 1997 everyone was offered a status called British National (Overseas). Anyone who accepted this offer retained their nationality after the handover, and anyone who didn't permanently lost their chance to be a BNO.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoPity they did not extend the same courtesy to all the descendants of the "Windrush" immigration wave from the Caribbean but then they are just poor black folk.
- sampo 6y ago68% of conservative voters, 71% of labour voters, and 77% of libdem voters support this. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/01/support-helping-british-passport-holders-hong-kong https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/0...
- nly 6y agoSurprising isn't it, given how much of a driving force EU immigration was in the Brexit debate.
- runawaybottle 6y agoIs it surprising? UK has a problem with certain races coming over. What’s the difference between Syrian refugees and Hong Kongers? They would both be seeking refugee status essentially.
- akie 6y agoThey have a problem with Europeans coming over as well.
- runawaybottle 6y agoThat’s not what rallied Brexit. The right riled up people with “scary” immigration, the same way “scary” Mexican immigration was used by Trump. But hey, Hong Kongers are “better” immigrants. We can all see through this I hope.
- AuryGlenz 6y agoI don’t think it’s wrong to prefer to have educated immigrants over non-educated. One creates wealth and resources and the other drains it. One is more likely to be law abiding and the other less likely. If Wakanda existed I doubt there would be much opposition to letting their citizens immigrate.
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- nanna 6y agoThe excellent Freedom of Movement blog is publishing great explainers on this. https://www.freemovement.org.uk/bno-visa-hong-kong-dominic-r.. https://www.freemovement.org.uk/bno-visa-hong-kong-dominic-r.... tldr; It applies to Hong Kongers who applied for British National (Overseas) Citizenship (BNO) before registration closed in 1997, and it can not be inherited. Many of the young HK protestors will therefore be ineligible for it. BNO is an obscure post-Colonial status applicable to Hong Kongers which did not up till now grant long term residence to the UK. BNOs who now want to take up the government's offer for long term residence in the UK will have to fork a significant up front fee. This makes it available only to wealthy BNOs. If the government wanted to they could have changed the law to allow them to skip much of this, but they haven't.
- magnusmagnusson 6y ago"... the government to dissolve the people and elect another."
- vmception 6y agoHong Kong as a Special Economic Zone (SEZ) instead of a Special Administrative Region (SAR) would be an easy transition. Although I don't see it more appealing than other SEZ's Shanghai's Free Trade Zone or the entire Hainan Province. But the consolidation of existing companies and operations in Hong Kong would still be pretty unique, its uniqueness still not that relevant. For regional price discovery it would be useful, like for some publicly traded companies or local futures markets.
- magicsmoke 6y agoHK has the inertia of having lots preexisting international HQs there. Any takers on how many of those will move out over the coming decades? > or < 50% of them?
- vmception 6y agoLosing its special trading status with the US should already be the catalyst for that. But the market based economies of China's Special Economic Zones should make Hong Kong as attractive as any other major financial center, instead of as a micro-state. There are many international HQs in major financial centers under high tax regimes, whether it is Shanghai, New York City, London, Frankfurt. I would say 30% move, so less than 50%. Incumbents in Hong Kong are already beneficiaries of the Communist Party in Beijing, otherwise corporate consensus in the LegCo would have matched the individual consensus already.
- vantheman12312 6y agoA rare display of competent politicians in the UK
- LatteLazy 6y agoNo, only to a tiny subset of HK residents on a very arbitrary basis, specifically excluding anyone under 23 (so most protestors) and any child (so most people who don't want to literally abandon their kids).
- M2Ys4U 6y agoBNOs can bring their children with them, the visa restrictions have also been lifted for dependants.
- ArgyleSound 6y agoA tiny subset being half of them and their dependents?
- itskwanyall 6y ago> very arbitrary basis Arbitrary? This is the opposite of arbitrary, it's everyone who is eligible for BNO status (i.e. was alive during the handover) and their dependents.
- OJFord 6y agoDependents are allowed, they just wouldn't be on their own application.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- fatjokes 6y agoI'm super curious to see how this will turn out for the UK. A lot of the comments here mention HK's relative high education, English proficiency and wealth. If those are true: the upside will be easier settlement into the UK, maybe increased entrepreneurship. The downsides are: driving up local housing prices, increased competition for jobs. If those are false, the UK may experience an influx of lower-wage labor and increased competition for blue-collar jobs. Possibly even increased crime (maybe Triads would move to the UK?) I have a feeling anti-Asian/Chinese racism would spike in the UK. It has popular bipartisan support right now (another comment mentioned that) because anti-China/CCP sentiment is probably at an all-time high, but you can't take in thousands/millions of people in a short amount of time from a different culture without expecting an impact on your own. tl;dr: How do I invest in British real estate?
- OJFord 6y ago> tl;dr: How do I invest in British real estate? Builders (e.g. Persimmon) and LSE-listed investment trusts buying land for development, assuming you mean residential. If you mean commercial, there's a wider choice of funds, developers, and management companies.
- C1sc0cat 6y agoAnd you assume that China will allow an orderly evacuation and allow HK residents to leave with their capital intact. This might be more like the ethnic cleansing that happened in Kenya and Uganda - where people where forced out leaving behind a lot of assets.
- christoph 6y agoI think you would have to be slightly crazy to invest in UK property right now. COVID is leading to mass lay offs across many sectors and destroying what little was left of the high streets. Add in lots more working from home - property values will probably, IMO, level out across the country rather than being concentrated heavily in the south east, London and major cities as less people need to commute. Why live close to London if you don’t need to travel in everyday? Businesses will then undoubtedly scale down or reduce the burden of commercial property with more homeworkers, etc. leading to an increase in available real estate, etc. Just my opinion.
- BluffFace 6y agoThe US needs to join the UK and be vocal in support of the Hong Kong people.
- computerfriend 6y agoThe US has been far more vocal already.
- arethuza 6y agoThere was an idea floating around in 1989 to build a "New Hong Kong" in Scotland! https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/11920027.scotland-could-be-site-of-new-hong-kong-says-study/ https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/11920027.scotland-could-... Edit: I'm sure we could find a bit that was fairly similar to the scenery of Hong Kong, though not sure we can do much about the weather....
- Nginx487 6y agoGreat initiative, given that most of the immigrants are educated, experienced professionals, and have English as their second native language. Definitely, democratic progressive countries should compete for the right to host Hong Kongers.
- Nginx487 6y agoI'm really happy the UK did not leave the former colony to suffer under the communist regime. Reminds me of the situation with Jews before WWII - if they were given the same kind of refuge by any country, Holocaust would hot had happened. Sometimes I dream, who'd have offered citizenship or at least refuge to residents of Russia, to escape our ongoing Soviet Union restoration.
- pinfisher 6y agoIsnt this the kind of thing that starts wars.
- 99_00 6y agoI live in Vancouver. The pattern for many Hong Kong immigrants is to have the mother and children live in Canada while the father works in HK.The family doesn't declare the foreign income in Canada. So they enjoy the benefits of a low tax HK income. And they get all the nice things that go with living in high tax Canada while not contributing to it -free healthcare, subsided University, safe communities, clean environment, low income benefits. It's so common it has a name, satalite family/astronaut dad. This isn't a good deal for Canada and Canadians. https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/the-unsettled-lives-of-wealthy-transnational-migrants/ https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/the-unsettled-live...
- tmaly 6y agoIt's also not a good deal for the kids who do not get to see their father.
- sterlind 6y agoIf the dad stays an astronaut, he will get lost in space once China finishes engulfing HK. I don't think HKers are going to be as worried about reducing their tax rates as staying free right now..
- 99_00 6y agoThe whole reason for getting Canadian citizenship is for the day that China engulfs HK and they want to leave. China isn't going to restrict the movement of hundreds of thousands of foreigners legally living in HK. 300,000 Canadians living in HK right now.
- magicsmoke 6y agoYep, the CCP is going after political dissidents. Expats that keep their head down while making money in HK aren't going to be affected.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> China isn't going to restrict the movement of hundreds of thousands of foreigners legally living in HK. At least, they are less likely to do so than they are people who aren’t foreigners, although even them I wouldn’t want to bet my life on it. China ending the two-systems arrangement in Hong Kong despite the Joint Declaration is basically saying “As far as HK (and, implicitly, anything we consider Chinese territory) is concerned, we aren't concerned about what other countries think, or international law or agreements, only power.”
- nathanhammond 6y agoNobody wants to leave Hong Kong. We're on the streets fighting for our home alongside people who love it just as much as we do. We have spent the past year gathering to sing, to celebrate, to mourn, and to fight for this place that we love. The past year has made it immensely clear how special a place Hong Kong is—even with the many things that can be improved. This offer is appreciated and I believe that those who accept it as expedient will not be looked down upon by others. When you have the Sword of Damocles hanging over your head it is an exhausting existence. Many in the resistance will move overseas and continue their efforts. From an economic standpoint, any emigration of Hong Kongers is likely to be beneficial to the places where they land. Those most likely to take this offer in the short term will coincide with those who are most materially wealthy. Given that the CCP has threatened to revoke the Chinese Nationality of those who accept an offer of this sort (and has been known to use family members as leverage), I do not expect that, as a sibling comment states, we would see people trying to use this as a tax avoidance scheme. From a demographic standpoint, many of the people who will choose to leave are young. This is a significant benefit to many places in the world who have declining birth rates. The UK population pyramid, for example, would appear to benefit from immigration of a younger cohort. [1] As to efficacy, there is a gap in coverage for those born shortly after the handover. It's unclear how many will fall into that gap but it does represent a cohort of people who tend more toward exclusively identifying as Hong Kongers. [2] People who qualify as dependents of BNO holders appear to be eligible so that gap may be approximately six years: July 1, 1997 - July 1, 2003. It also doesn't account for children of HK immigrants and I have no insight into those demographics and their opinions (possibly a significant number of mainland immigrants who identify as Chinese). As a real gesture, instead of the words that have been spent accomplishing nothing for the past year, this is a welcome change. Hong Kongers are now hoping for 攬炒, "if we burn, you burn with us." But if nobody holds the CCP accountable it just becomes "we burn." (I'm a US passport holder. I am a Hong Kong immigrant. My wife was born and raised in Hong Kong (土生土長香港人). I'm currently studying Cantonese full time at CUHK (中文大學). I have a 光復香港時代革命 flag hanging in my apartment. I wrote this quickly: there will be errors, glosses, and poorly expressed things. I do not speak for all Hong Kongers and their experiences, hopes, wishes, desires, and dreams.) [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/ukpopulationpyramidinteractive/2020-01-08 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populati... [2] https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/pori_table_chart/EthnicIdentity/Q001_Hongkonger_byagegp/Q001_Hongkonger_byagegp_chart.html https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/pori_table_chart/EthnicIdentity/Q0...