26 ms·
I live and work in India and I would like to throw more light on this. Me and my friends like to joke around that you will never get your dues, either pay raise
by walt0 6y ago
I live and work in India and I would like to throw more light on this.
Me and my friends like to joke around that you will never get your dues, either pay raise or promotions unless you have the last names jain, gupta, sharma, verma.
I had a guy on my team who was very capable but did not have the right last name, he was being harassed for promotions for 4-5 years. On the other hand the manager class was entirely "jain, gupta, sharma, verma".
I know of a specific case where the same manager had one of his relatives transferred from another branch and then promoted to manager on a different team in the same branch. This was all very hush-hush, I know of it because I overheard them talking about it. This is not some local tidbit software company, this is a company you HAVE heard about.
But it is not just caste based discrimination. There's also linguistic and region based discrimination because there is a lot of regional and linguistic diversity in India. If you travel a few hundred miles in any direction, the language and culture completely change. I have seen teams being formed around states and languages, and they will not let anyone else come into their in group. I have seen teams with extreme left ideologies that will not let anyone else in their team.
I don't believe dalits are any different, they also engange in these practices when they can and I know about people who have suffered from that situation as well.
Everyone's naked in this bath house.
- sbmthakur 6y agoNo surprise there. Nepotism, casteism and regionalism are widespread at certain companies in India.
- entha_saava 6y agoNot to forget extreme nationalism.
- peroporque 6y agoCouldn't people just change their last name? I imagine if suddenly everyone's last name was Gupta, that kind of discrimination would become difficult.
- hef19898 6y agoI wondered the same thing when I was in India years ago. So I asked our guide. There are a lot of clues beyond family name to determine ones caste. Would be nice if it where that easy, so.
- saagarjha 6y agoAnd I assume some people like their last name, regardless of discrimination they might face because of it…
- ponker 6y agoYou can change your last name to Rockefeller, and some get away with it [1], but usually you'd be exposed because not only would you not have the right clothes, manners, alma maters, accent, etc... but most of all, you wouldn't know the right people. "Oh you're a Rockefeller, eh? So I'll see you at the Wickliffe's garden party in Martha's Vineyard this June?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gerhartsreiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gerhartsreiter
- bravura 6y agoAlthough I agree with your general sentiment, it seems that Christian Gerhartsreiter got quite far (e.g. member of the Algonquin club), and wasn't discovered because of poor manners or a declasse accent or the wrong clothes, but for parental child abduction.
- ponker 6y agoYep. He even married a McKinsey partner back when that was an admirable career.
- himinlomax 6y agoFor some reason this reminds me of this Senegalese immigrant to France who, upon receiving citizenship, petitioned to have his legal name changed to better reflect his new identity. He chose "Charles de Gaulle." This was 30 years ago, I don't remember if he was successful.
- clothesline 6y agoI hope this nonsense can stop and talent can be rewarded regardless of caste. > This was all very hush-hush, I know of it because I overheard them talking about it. Of course it is. In India, there are some ridiculuous rules related to caste discrimination. For example someone from "lower" caste can sue a person for libel and have him thrown in jail with no FIR. Caste based discrimination is wrong. But arrest-before-FIR is worse and can destroy someone's life.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- 42_ 6y agoDo you know why such a law came into existence? Because of atrocities against "lower" castes which wouldn't even be investigated. But most laws in India end up being misused. (For example dowry harassment laws.)
- walt0 6y agoNo other country has such laws. It's against even the basic magna carta principles. I know about "victims" who lie about the accusitions in these cases, the local community knows that its a lie but people are still guilty until proven innocent. I disagree with this, even though I faced such discrimination. P.S That does not mean discrimination does not take place or that there are no genuine complaints.
- sa1 6y ago> Because of atrocities against "lower" castes which wouldn't even be investigated > I know about "victims" who lie about the accusitions in these cases, the local community knows that its a lie but people are still guilty until proven innocent. Both of you are offering anecdotes, and I assume the former far outnumbers the latter, but we would find more anecdotes of the latter on HN, because most Indians here are not low-caste. P.S That does not mean that discrimination does always take place or that there are no false cases.
- scandox 6y agoCurious what extreme left ideology looks like in India.
- letmethrow 6y agoit looks like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZb4lGYkjrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZb4lGYkjrg
- DyslexicAtheist 6y agotrying to establish context between the video and GP question. are you saying the extreme left are the Dalit or the Sharma's and Guptas's ?
- sameerds 6y agoIn India, "the Left" represents socialism, while "the Right" represents liberal economics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_left People with leftist political leanings are generally unhappy with all governments, and have very strong opinions about how the country should be run. They end up forming their own tight clubs. EDIT: corrected "libertarian economics" to "liberal economics"
- walt0 6y agoI disagree with this actually. The right in India in terms of economic policy is as far left as in the democratic party in USA. The left is further left.
- sameerds 6y agoSure, I'll take your word about US politics. But I don't see a disagreement ... the Indian right still represents the liberal end of the Indian spectrum on economic policy. Whether that is far or near in US terms does not constitute a disagreement.
- 6y ago
- anandrm 6y agoI guess this does not stop in Jobs but also in VC Funding . Most VCs/Seed funds are run by few upper caste Indians . They do have discrimination if you come from a backward caste . if you belong to the same caste , chances of getting a fund are more .
- magicnubs 6y agoWhat is a "backward caste"? Haven't heard this term before
- mistrial9 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_for_Backward_Classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_for_Backwa...
- ak39 6y agoThe use of the word "Backward" is racist and derogatory.
- unmole 6y agoIt's the official terminology: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Backward_Class https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Backward_Class It's not considered derogatory in India.
- ak39 6y agoI know. It perpetuates the racism and derogatory attitudes.
- nexus2045 6y agoThat's the point of this whole thread.
- ak39 6y agoI have heard this term often but never gotten used to it being used to describe an entire ethnic group nonchallantly - like the comment you are replyig to. I have had several conversations with Indian colleagues where some would use this term to describe other non-privileged classes as "backward" so matter of factly. This is racism of the quintessential kind.
- naruvimama 6y agoDo you realise Jain is a religion. Yes, people do stereotype people based on their background. In a country where just 70 years ago, people were shipped off to the caribbean as bonded labourers and as slave replacements. People and communities form tribes and where you are in your life depends a lot on how wealthy and influential your parents/grand parents where. A big problem is the the leftist politics of painting everything as social problems, instead of dealing with them as they are.
- walt0 6y agoYes I do because I live here. Becuase most of the original adherents of jainism are from the merchant caste and if you ask a layperson that is how they will describe them. And there is still a strong syncreticism between hinduism and jainism. Most jains still run businesses, companies and corners shops.
- bantunes 6y ago> A big problem is the the leftist politics of painting everything as social problems, instead of dealing with them as they are. I don't understand. If caste-based discrimination is not a social problem, what is it then?
- roenxi 6y agoI agree, caste-based discrimination has to be almost as pure a social problem as problems can get. But in defence of what gp said, it is possible for the major problems to be unidentified and cause misattributed to discrimination. Consider the classic US Berkeley bias case [0]. No doubt sexism is rampant at universities as it tends to crop up everywhere, but sexism wasn't the cause of the statistical anomaly that was the issue of the day. In a nutshell, the existence of discrimination doesn't mean that it is causing the issue at hand. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox#UC_Berkeley_gender_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox#UC_Berkeley_...
- naruvimama 6y agoWe are no longer forced to follow our father's profession or live in our villages. Caste names are very local, when you move to a city or another state where people speak a different language people will have no way of knowing. I am NOT a brahmin and I am not taking a privileged position, however the people claiming to be SJWs real goal is to make these divisions larger. A lot of educated and intelligent black Americans, do not support BLM precisely for this reason. The far left benefits from all the violence and politics, whereas ordinary black people will pay the price of greater mistrust.
- walt0 6y agoThe reason I joined the private sector instead of the government sector, is that these issues are much much worse in the government sector. I was brainwashed to belive that merit will be valued in the private sector by the HR department and the managers. Which its not in the few places I have worked at. I'm not even low-caste but still faced these issues. My dad worked for the government for 30 years and he was not promoted even once until this year. this is not because he was not good at his work, the work is actually pretty simple and stupid, but because of affirmative action policies of all governments current and past, left or right.
- ethbro 6y agoAny discrimination and groupthink seems intensified in workplaces with (1) little reassignment, (2) long tenures, & (3) little external, objective performance feedback. E.g. government and many portions of academia. People who don't support it leave, and people who are ambivalent adopt the attitudes of their remaining colleagues.
- raxxorrax 6y agoI don't think that performance feedback or reassignment has necessarily anything to do with it. Would you like to be frequently reassigned at your job? I don't know many people who would. Yes, all these things might create entrenched groups, but make working viable in many occupations in the first place. I would take the groupthink in that case too.
- michaelt 6y agoIn a company that is successful and growing, with new teams and projects and offices, there will be more promotion opportunities per candidate - and fewer situations where they have several strong candidates and an almost-arbitrary choice to make between them. If you're in a sector that isn't growing, or might even be shrinking, I imagine promotions are a lot more competitive... Admittedly, 'reassignment' might not be the most precise term for this...
- ecmascript 6y agoWhat if you change your last name to either of these?
- walt0 6y agoMost forms ask you to fill your parents name and they also ask you to fill your reservation group, that is general, OBC or SC/ST(schedules class/tribe). A lot can be gathered from this. Even if you lie, there are background checks for this. The smarter parents, register their kids as something generic like "kumar" or "singh" in schools.
- mprovost 6y agoInteresting, I've often seen CVs from people applying from India include their parents' details. I assumed it was something to do with caste but I was still surprised to see it added even when not required.
- randomguy2379 6y agoAn even better approach is to just change your religion. I was born a hindu dalit but I converted and so have many of my friends and family. Religious conversions have become so common in India that states have started to bring out laws to curtail it. Casteism is a construct of Hinduism and other religions don't suffer from it in the same way as Hinduism does. So you can change your religion , your name and claim that you have no caste. Hindus have no problem seeing a converted christian as equal to them, but will refuse to see people from their own religion as equal.
- ecmascript 6y agoThat is weird and very foreign to me. Why not become an atheist? Or doesn't that count?
- devdas 6y agoAtheism still lets you be Hindu. Belief in any number of gods is optional, including 0.
- C1sc0cat 6y agoI mentioned this before and got marked down for it. In the UK Caste was added a few years into the anti discrimination law. I know one of the MP's involved in getting that through parliament.
- iamshs 6y agoWasn't the bill not passed through the parliament due to opposition by British Hindus? [1] Or you talking about a separate law? [1] - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-38663143 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-38663143
- C1sc0cat 6y agoI am not sure I thought that Parmjit Danda, Keith Vaz and Lord Gupta had got it through. Incidentally the person concerned in that article lives in my home town
- Jayakumark 6y ago100% agreed, I worked for a big 3 Letter Corp and heard manager speaking in his native language of the State (same as the company was located) to another member of team from same State, saying please work a little and i will promote you as a manager ,who will i do it for, if not for you. In the meantime, we were working our ass off and got nothing. Its there for real, you can easily see it - If you join a multinational company and find a team with more than 50% of people are from same State - There is something going on. First thing that should be banned in india is attaching Caste as the Last Name.
- _tw9j 6y agoI agree but people will still discriminate. People think I am south indian even when speaking in northish accent. They make many implicit assumption based on how I behave, talk and look.
- blinding-streak 6y agoWhat is a "big 3 letter corp"? Haven't heard this phrase before.
- ab_testing 6y agoIBM
- yellowstuff 6y agoI'd guess SAP or IBM.
- AdrianB1 6y agoIBM or TCS (Tata Consulting Services).
- nigerian1981 6y agoI guess the difference is that Dalits are much less likely to be in a position of influence or power
- sremani 6y agoThere is about 27% Quota for SC/ST (a category that covers Dalits). So, you would find Dalits in state and central government jobs. Private Sector is not subjected to those quotas even though attempts are made.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- hungry_haibt 6y agoAnother anecdote, my previous manager has one of those last names. He was hiring for a position and screening the resumes. He would send them to me for initial phone screen. After a while, I saw a pattern, all the candidates he chose to move forward with had same last names.
- hckr_news 6y agoHmm excuse my ignorance. But why couldn’t someone legally change their last name to one of these? Could they really tell what family, tribe, or caste you’re from by face? I suppose regional dialect can be noticed.
- wobbly_bush 6y agoIt's more about just the name. The best way to understand is to think of India is as similar to European Union with each caste as a country. At some point all the castes intermingled, but they have their own unique set of cultures to this day. So it's more about discrimination against other set of cultures. Loosing your last name at that point is like loosing your culture.
- eitally 6y agoI saw the same kind of discrimination in an Indian office I used to manage part of (that is to say, a fair number of the staff functionally reported to me but all the local management and HR decisions happened in India). It was interesting, though: the office was in Chennai and they essentially banned even interviewing anyone from outside Tamil Nadu, no matter how qualified. Perhaps someone from Andhra Pradesh or Kerala got in every now and then, but no one from farther afield.
- WhompingWindows 6y agoWould it help Indian citizens to change their last name?
- pix64 6y agoI would be thinking about changing my name.
- pseudonymousgun 6y agoPlease spare the dalits my friend :) they are the worst affected from this caste based discrimination! :) Sure, there may be a few who engage in the kinds of practices you are referring to but the majority don't. Even if they did, that would be to protect themselves (these kinds of dalits tend to be enlightened about their plight in society and local politics in their organization) and to create checks and balances they engage in this stuff.