4 ms·

That's a sensationalized way of describing it. Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized. The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daug

by defen 6y ago

That's a sensationalized way of describing it. Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized. The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized. The judge made a large number of procedural mistakes in granting the petition, but the Supreme Court ruled that he didn't act outside of his judicial capacity. The general rule is that judges can't be held personally liable for mistakes they make when acting in their official capacity as judges.

dependenttypes 6y ago
> Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized They can if someone petitions for it. > The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized And I can petition to have you sterilized. If the judge accepts it you will not be able to hold him responsible. He does not need to listen to you nor do you need to know about it. > The general rule is that judges can't be held personally liable for mistakes they make when acting in their official capacity as judges. Meanwhile doctors, drivers, etc can be held personally liable for mistakes they make while working.
- defen 6y ago
  So in your opinion, if I petition a court for permission to kill my neighbor "because he's really annoying", and for some reason the judge says yes, he won't be held liable? Because I disagree. Judges do not have the ability to blanket "bless" actions so long as someone petitions for it. You have to look at the specifics of the case.
  - nitwit005 6y ago
    As long as it survives appeal, judges can basically rule whatever they want. Plenty of crazy rulings have gotten through the courts. Remember that time they ruled it was okay to toss all the Japanese people in internment camps?
    - boudewijnrempt 6y ago
      That wasn't so crazy back in the time; it had many time-honoured precedents, ranging from the Boer war internment camps to the SWA internment camps, to the ones in WWI in occupied France and Belgium, and, of course, the make-belief internment camps for Armenians in Turkey; a really good book that explains how the idea that interning a whole ethnicity was a good idea sprang up is "Absolute Destruction" by Isabell V. Hull. (Note: the US and what it did and does, does not exist in isolation; these outside-US developments are germane. Also, it was evil and cruel and contra-productive, but that wasn't a problem, because since it was what you would do, in case of war, it had to be done.)
    - defen 6y ago
      Judges could also order that "fugitive" slaves could be returned to their "owners", or that people convicted of treason could be vivisected, if you go far enough back in time. I'm not sure what point is being argued here. If you want to make judges personally liable for following the law and/or for making mistakes, why would anyone become a judge?
      - Mirioron 6y ago
        If you make soldiers personally liable for following orders then why would anyone want to be a soldier? I'm not saying this to be funny. Most other professions can be held responsible for doing their job, but doing it very poorly that causes harm to others. But somehow judges are exempt.
        defen 6y ago
        They're not liable for following lawful orders, though, even if the results are horrific and they personally disagree with the order. That's why no one gets charged when a drone strike blows up a wedding and kills 23 children.
SkyBelow 6y ago
>Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized. More specifically, they can't unless they do, but if they do then that's okay. Which seems to simplify to "they can".
- defen 6y ago
  "Judges can order people to be put to death." That's a true statement, and in my opinion not deceptive, because capital punishment is widely understood as a thing that exists, and that it is treated as a punishment for certain crimes for which a person has been duly convicted. No reasonable person hears "Judges can order people to be put to death" and thinks "Wow, so a rogue judge could just order me to be killed for no reason and that would be it, game over for me?" My claim is that "a US judge can order to you be sterilized without your knowledge and you can do nothing about it nor can anything be done to the judge." is not like the previous statement, because it only applies in an extremely limited (at the time; possibly not at all now, I don't know) set of circumstances with which an ordinary layperson would not be familiar.
  - Mirioron 6y ago
    >Wow, so a rogue judge could just order me to be killed for no reason and that would be it, game over for me? The difference is that you can know about it and defend yourself. There are hearings and chances to appeal. The sterilization in this case was done without the girl/woman's knowledge. It's impossible for her to appeal, because she didn't even know about it. Even worse is that her guardian would be the one who would decide to appeal.
Mirioron 6y ago
>The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized. Anyone can petition anything. Granting a petition that does something that would violate someone else's rights despite them not having done anything wrong is fundamentally wrong. Forced sterilization, especially without your knowledge, is akin to capital punishment. If you get it wrong then nothing can make amends for it, because you cannot undo it.

by defen 6y ago

dependenttypes 6y ago

> Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized They can if someone petitions for it. > The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized And I can petition to have you sterilized. If the judge accepts it you will not be able to hold him responsible. He does not need to listen to you nor do you need to know about it. > The general rule is that judges can't be held personally liable for mistakes they make when acting in their official capacity as judges. Meanwhile doctors, drivers, etc can be held personally liable for mistakes they make while working.

defen 6y ago
So in your opinion, if I petition a court for permission to kill my neighbor "because he's really annoying", and for some reason the judge says yes, he won't be held liable? Because I disagree. Judges do not have the ability to blanket "bless" actions so long as someone petitions for it. You have to look at the specifics of the case.
- nitwit005 6y ago
  As long as it survives appeal, judges can basically rule whatever they want. Plenty of crazy rulings have gotten through the courts. Remember that time they ruled it was okay to toss all the Japanese people in internment camps?
  - boudewijnrempt 6y ago
    That wasn't so crazy back in the time; it had many time-honoured precedents, ranging from the Boer war internment camps to the SWA internment camps, to the ones in WWI in occupied France and Belgium, and, of course, the make-belief internment camps for Armenians in Turkey; a really good book that explains how the idea that interning a whole ethnicity was a good idea sprang up is "Absolute Destruction" by Isabell V. Hull. (Note: the US and what it did and does, does not exist in isolation; these outside-US developments are germane. Also, it was evil and cruel and contra-productive, but that wasn't a problem, because since it was what you would do, in case of war, it had to be done.)
  - defen 6y ago
    Judges could also order that "fugitive" slaves could be returned to their "owners", or that people convicted of treason could be vivisected, if you go far enough back in time. I'm not sure what point is being argued here. If you want to make judges personally liable for following the law and/or for making mistakes, why would anyone become a judge?
    - Mirioron 6y ago
      If you make soldiers personally liable for following orders then why would anyone want to be a soldier? I'm not saying this to be funny. Most other professions can be held responsible for doing their job, but doing it very poorly that causes harm to others. But somehow judges are exempt.
      - defen 6y ago
        They're not liable for following lawful orders, though, even if the results are horrific and they personally disagree with the order. That's why no one gets charged when a drone strike blows up a wedding and kills 23 children.

SkyBelow 6y ago

>Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized. More specifically, they can't unless they do, but if they do then that's okay. Which seems to simplify to "they can".

defen 6y ago
"Judges can order people to be put to death." That's a true statement, and in my opinion not deceptive, because capital punishment is widely understood as a thing that exists, and that it is treated as a punishment for certain crimes for which a person has been duly convicted. No reasonable person hears "Judges can order people to be put to death" and thinks "Wow, so a rogue judge could just order me to be killed for no reason and that would be it, game over for me?" My claim is that "a US judge can order to you be sterilized without your knowledge and you can do nothing about it nor can anything be done to the judge." is not like the previous statement, because it only applies in an extremely limited (at the time; possibly not at all now, I don't know) set of circumstances with which an ordinary layperson would not be familiar.
- Mirioron 6y ago
  >Wow, so a rogue judge could just order me to be killed for no reason and that would be it, game over for me? The difference is that you can know about it and defend yourself. There are hearings and chances to appeal. The sterilization in this case was done without the girl/woman's knowledge. It's impossible for her to appeal, because she didn't even know about it. Even worse is that her guardian would be the one who would decide to appeal.

Mirioron 6y ago

>The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized. Anyone can petition anything. Granting a petition that does something that would violate someone else's rights despite them not having done anything wrong is fundamentally wrong. Forced sterilization, especially without your knowledge, is akin to capital punishment. If you get it wrong then nothing can make amends for it, because you cannot undo it.