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US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire
by obiye 6y ago
US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.
- fiblye 6y ago>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?
- obiye 6y agoTheir “ideals” are more land and more power for themselves. That is their publicly stated ambition. That is what is ridiculous.
- baybal2 6y ago> This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something? As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality. Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades. I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves. Just like an airplane on autopilot will fly aimlessly until it runs out of fuel, or runs into a mountain, both Xi, and Putin just want their systems to last as much as they can, and if they need to invade few countries to sate primal urges of their polities, they think "so be it"
- fiblye 6y agoI don't know enough about Russia to speak about it, but China's goals are pretty clear. They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively, working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity, and spreading Chinese culture around the world through economic and social means. Another big one is trying to earn China respect as a nation and undoing the reputation of being poor, dirty, and being an exporter of junk, and one big way they're aiming for that is through tech exports and scientific research. The government has clear ideals. The problem is the ways they're going about achieving them and whether some of them (like erasing the separate cultures within their borders) is justifiable.
- baybal2 6y ago> They're aiming to raise the standard of living in China massively Haha > working towards one united and uniform Chinese cultural identity, Haha Ask any middle class Chinese citizen earning his cup of rice. If you really believe that, lots of Chinese grannies are laughing at you now.
- fiblye 6y agoAsk any Chinese person whether the quality of life is better now than 5 years ago, and they'll say yes. Ask them if it's better than 10 years ago and they'll say of course. Ask a grandma if it's better than 50 years ago, and she'll think you're insane for even doubting that it's better. People have trains, food, houses, and smartphones as a baseline with many taking international trips. A couple decades ago, China was incredibly poor. Their modern lifestyle was unimaginable, which is why the CCP has no trouble maintaining stability. And China is chipping away at its various cultures and pushing for one Mandarin-speaking Han identity and achieving that goal quite quickly. I have no clue what point you're trying to make.
- baybal2 6y agoI can call ten Chinese citizens now, of all walk of life, including non rank holding CPC member, and small time public servants. They will laugh you out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ6UuF85ENA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ6UuF85ENA
- arcticbull 6y agoIt's crazy that at the time of the handover, Hong Kong accounted for about 20% of China's GDP. Today, it's just 2.7%
- ric2b 6y ago> Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades. > I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves. I could say the same about the US.
- baybal2 6y agoThis is the world we live in today
- eximius 6y agoFine, they aspire to power and resources. Is that better?
- tanilama 6y ago> Russia and China aspire to nothing. Not really. Russia and China aspires to protect their perceived sovereignty. That is probably the most fundamental political ideal. Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'. Last but not least, in a post-COVID world, I can't really say that US is even better for your physical well-being among the choices.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago> Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'. Depends what you mean by "treat it as foreign". It's under a different legal system, it has its own currency, and migration between China and Hong Kong is controlled. If you enter China on a single-entry visa, you won't be able to get back in (without a new visa) after visiting Hong Kong.
- tanilama 6y agoDefinitely not in the sense that China would treat HK issue like anything but its internal issues. Its action of directly imposing the national security law upon HK only asserts its position, that Chinese government doesn't see there is any need to start negotiation, with anyone.
- baybal2 6y agoI think, you need to read some history books... preferably Chinese, or Russian. For most people from the West, the political thinking of people in power here is almost martian. Both Russia, and China spent a big chunk of their history under foreign occupation, and the occupation it was very savage, and brutal. How do you reconcile your imperial ambitions with understanding that your global superpower polity began its existence as a country of a slave? How do you live as a big man you tell you are when your driving impulse is a preoccupation with your vulnerabilities, and your identity as a power holder being that of an enemy to your own people, having to server as a tributary, or vassal lord to some Hun/Mongol/Tatar/Manchu khan on your own home soil? This is the reason of immense insecurity of ego, and character you see there through the history. And that cutthroat, survivalist attitude is also because of that. And the incessant urges to do chest trumping, and prove themselves are also because of that.
- yoav 6y agoThe US is an oppressive surveillance state with regular police murdering minorities, rampant white supremacy, and when not in the middle of catastrophically mishandling a pandemic, has a mass shooting every day of the year. To most people outside the US’s branding sway there’s very little difference between a USA and a Russia or China
- almost_usual 6y agoAlso a country where millions of people from different backgrounds, religions, and races will unite and march for the justice of minorities. Will outright challenge authority in the street and march until negotiations are made during a pandemic. This does not happen in China or Russia.
- Barrin92 6y ago>where millions of people from different backgrounds, religions, and races will unite and march for the justice of minorities but mostly to act it out as performance art because people have been marching for decades now and yet here we are. The US is the only country that kind of lives in a permanent television version of itself, with people setting trashcans on fire for justice or throwing a window in, while a few dozen journalists capture some very authentic images[1] People in Russia or China are realistic enough to know that this is in itself nothing but entertainment. The US is in a sense the most advanced security state on the planet, because pretty much nobody else has manged to internalize its own opposition to that degree. [1]https://i.redd.it/xqrhsj17wb321.jpg https://i.redd.it/xqrhsj17wb321.jpg
- yoav 6y agoMillions of people risking their lives to beg the government to stop murdering people and police engaging in widespread violent crackdown against those people demonstrating is exactly what happens in those countries. I don’t know how systematic police murder and beating up peaceful protestors looks different to you when it happens in the US and when it happens elsewhere. What is it about the anthem or flag that makes you see it differently? Look at Hong Kong protests, then look at police beating people in cities across the US it’s the same. What are the concessions from the US government? A few minor police reforms to encourage cops to stop killing minorities on camera, qualified immunity is still here, so basically nothing. At least China and Russia consider healthcare a human right like any developed country. The US health care system is depraved.
- koonsolo 6y agoRussia takes care of Russia, China takes care of China, and well, US takes care of US, but acts as if they take care of the world. US foreign policy is meant to improve US. If you don't agree, please give me an example where they wanted to "spread democracy" without any personal gain. And I'm perfectly fine here in EU thank you very much.
- obiye 6y ago> implying the EU is a world power Ok thanks for your opinion lol
- kevin_thibedeau 6y agoYou can thank us later for fixing that Milosevic problem that the EU should have dealt with itself.
- sudhebern 6y agoShh, HN is super pro EU. You're not allowed to point out that nobody cares about them outside of trade.
- obiye27 6y agoYou didn’t answer the question, which is itself an answer. And as you know, the EU is an empty husk, not a world power. It can’t even agree which countries are members. If you truly believe the US is only self interested, why get angry about things like the Iraq war? Surely this is normal for a self interested nation to conquer others?
- simonh 6y agoYou can look at it that way sure. The USA benefits from global stability and trade, but don't pretend the USA's trading and defence partners don't benefit as well. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. In contrast, how many countries have that sort of relationship with Russia or China? You could argue Syria has benefited from Russian patronage, but in reality Russia doesn't care at all about Syria, only it's base in Tartus. China has no regional allies whatsoever. The key difference is that the USA has a reputation to protect. It has so many allies, both military and economic, that if it sells out one of them for purely transactional gain, it weakens it's relationships with all it's other partners.
- hyperman1 6y agoI recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first. China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died. As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole China being a sort of extended family. The elders and superiors should be obeyed, not necessarily because they are better people, but because this represents stability. In turn, these elders and superiors should be better people, with traits as benevolence,integrity and righteousness. I am happy I live in Europe, not China, but looking at the state of most western democracy's today, I can have some understanding for this vision.
- ksec 6y agoUm.... There were hundred of other thoughts at the time and Confucianism hasn't risen. Confucianism was used as a tool to solidify the power within the Empire. The only thing you will do is kneel and obey. And China aspires to long-term stability first is not about China in itself, but the long term control of power. Which for thousands of years has proved what should now be a famous line, Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.
- justicezyx 6y agoI cannot help to ask: what are your background on Chinese history? What do you recommend for an overview on Confucius? You seem articulate thousands of years of history, and one of the most ancient philosophy and culture system, and it’s impact in so few words that I dare not to challenge - because, as a Chinese myself, I never gained enough understanding on Confucius, and had no capacity to summarize its impact or origin to even fellow Chinese friends. In the end, I doubt your credential as a competent commentator on such a complicated topic. But I have no intellectual capacity to either endorse or deny your statement.
- TheGallopedHigh 6y agoA great new-ish podcast is: The Fall of Civilizations Podcast. They have one on the Han dynasty, the first in China’s history. Worth a listen. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U9W7cOMGXyA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U9W7cOMGXyA
- teekert 6y agoI think you need to read this book : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit...
- obiye 6y agoI’ve read it. I think you need to learn any Chinese or Russian history.
- _-___________-_ 6y ago> Russia and China aspire to nothing. This is the same kind of destructive and pointlessly cynical statement that you're arguing against.
- obiye27 6y agoAnd sadly it is true. Perhaps in some century their governments will care about something other than wholesale slaughter. Probably not in my lifetime.
- itsmeamario 6y agoYes, personally I'd go live to China for a while before than to the US. All isn't as white and black as "we have ideals and they're the baddies". The US has a lot of negative things too like x40 guns per citizen [0] or a prohibitively expensive healthcare [1] I'd also like to learn Mandarin, but that's on me. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_systems_by_country#People's_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_systems_by_country...
- obiye27 6y agoYes, as I myself pointed out, the US has a lot of big problems which are not improving. But people have high expectations of the US, which they do not have of any other country. Nobody expects China or Russia to be anything but self serving. Why? Because that’s all they aim to be. Rather than trash the US’s ideals, how about we do better in living up to them?
- boomboomsubban 6y ago>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. How would these "ideals" stop the Chinese action in Hong Kong? Would they lead us to invading China again to force Hong Kong into Western hands, killing god knows how many millions this time?
- obiye27 6y agoIs your argument that HK is better off under Chinese rule, where dissidents will be arrested and tortured? Yeah, maybe it would be better if we killed millions of Chinese. Maybe at some point they’ll learn the lesson.