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>> It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they c

by PakG1 6y ago

>> It'll be very interesting to see if the UK goes through with it's offer to provide a path to citizenship for 3 million HK'ers. Frankly, it's the least they could do. As far as I can tell, a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment due to how easy it was for non-skilled people from other countries to enter into the UK? If so, I think that although Britons might be emotionally fine with that offer in the heat of things, they might not be so OK once they remember the negative emotions that drove Brexit in the first place. Either that, or Britons are extremely selective and discriminatory on who gets to get a pass for immigration (but that wouldn't surprise me). And then there's the other interesting factor in the wave of anti-Asian racism due to COVID-19-induced negative emotions, which the UK has also been experiencing. https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3086438/how-east-asians-uk-are-fighting-back-against https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/arti... If they go through with the offer to provide a path for citizenship for 3 million HK'ers, I think that's a decision that will force the general population to realize that they have a ton of cognitive dissonance all over the place. Or they won't, and they'll act like everything's normal and as it should be.

arcticbull 6y ago
As far as I can tell, Brexit was largely driven by discontent around Polish migration. There's over a million Polish citizens in the UK. This is a pretty good read [1]. [1] https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understanding-the-brexit-vote-the-impact-of-polish-immigrants-on-euroscepticism/ https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understand...
- klipt 6y ago
  Somehow, the fact that Britain seceded from the EU over one million foreigners, makes me skeptical that they'll offer citizenship to three million foreigners.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Citizens of the commonwealth aren't foreigners in the UK (and can vote if resident -- a Canadian citizen resident in the UK can vote in UK elections), and of course, Hong Kong is ex-commonwealth so I think it's more nuanced than you're giving it credit for. The Crown was sovereign over Hong Kong for more than 150 years.
  - kmlx 6y ago
    it wasn't about that. they left the EU club because they thought were getting far less out of it then they should have. while I don't agree with that, I do understand it.
  - Normal_gaussian 6y ago
    Framed as a move to spit in the eye of someone else (in this case China) it would be likely to gain overwhelming support.
- Lio 6y ago
  Poles are well thought of here. The meme of the hard working Polish builder is well known. I think one Pro-brexit faction created disinformation around Romanian immigrants. The other main brexit faction created a meme around “taking back control” from bureaucrats. Neither is based on reality.
  - bad_user 6y ago
    Funny thing, but especially given the Covid situation and worries about crops, now they want those low skilled Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians back, fighting over them with Germany, Spain, Italy, etc.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    What is based in reality is that the law isn't applied to everyone equally. That has to do with opportunistic politics and self presentation.
  - twelve40 6y ago
    So ok, honestly trying to understand this. You are saying a massive country-wide vote was decided based on a couple of bizarre myths ("Romanians and bureaucrats") propagated for some reason by some vaguely motivated groups, and majority (slim, but nonetheless) of the country made a decision on some ridiculous myths that have no basis in reality. What was the motivation for these lie-spreading groups to propagate those myths? How could a majority of a Western, best-educated probably in the whole world, about as democratic and core-value-believing country, be in a single moment swayed by a bunch of scammers like that? Was there any other basis for that, perhaps? Again, honest question, I know almost nothing about British politics, but dismissing a major vote in a very rich and educated country as lunacy seems ... not a great explanation?
    - Lio 6y ago
      The two groups are were Vote Leave and Leave EU. I don't want to derails a discussion about China effectively ending One Country Two Systems further but you can easily search for a description of their tactics if you want. You can also search for news on when the UK government report in to Russian interference in the vote will be released but I wouldn't hold your breath... Now back to what China is doing to the people of Hong Kong and why our companies are still outsourcing manufacturing to China without restriction.
Lio 6y ago
Personally I think Johnson just wants power and that Brexit was a useful tool for him to get it (at the expense of the country). He isn’t all in on the on far right stuff in the same way as Farage is. I think Johnson will follow through on give the Homg Kongers passports. Of course if the CPP wants to buy him off he might go that.
bsder 6y ago
> As far as I can tell, a lot of Brexit was driven by ... The problem with Brexit was the same with Trump--vague anger with no target. A bunch of different groups ascribed, often contradictory, concrete actions and values to the inchoate phenomenon. For Trump, this is embodied in "But he's not hurting the right people." Lots of people who voted for Trump wanted him to hurt their pet scapegoats, but the problem is that they were often the pet scapegoats for each other. For Brexit, you could take any idea (unified market, for example) and find Brexiteers who were both for and against it. This was doomed to a crash-out as there was no actual concrete proposal that could satisfy any more than a minority of Brexiteers. Ironically, revoking Brexit probably satisfies more voters than any concrete Brexit strategy.
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
> a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment I don't know if you can make massive generalizations about people who voted to leave Europe. Because people voted for all sorts of different reasons. And it wasn't just racists who voted to leave Europe. Cunts did as well didn't they.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt1sC3rtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt1sC3rtM
mrtksn 6y ago
I did not live outside of London but I knew quite a few Brexiteers and my impression is that it wasn't about hating on races or foreigners as much as about national pride on being superior and different to Europeans. No non-skilled Eastern Europeans were coming, they all came for a job that their services were required and these jobs ranged from picking fruits to working in high-tech industries. Of course there were some people who would exploit the social security system but these were insignificant. With Brexit, the government is now the first step in the HR department and reducing meritocracy by introducing non-skill criteria in the hiring process. Brits pride themselves for being international and having a grasp on foreign cultures and I think rightfully so. Continentals would always think in their own terms and dismiss the stuff that they don't understand as "bakcwards civilisations stuff" but the Brits would actually put an effort to understand foreign cultures and understand why someone does something. I think this also plays role in the relations with countries like Turkey, where the UK understand the country much better than their much more closer European neighbours. That's why I think having 3 million HK'ers in UK would not be that hard. Some may even argue that HK'ers could fit even easier than many continental Europeans due to the history and cultural influence of the UK in HK. I bet many Brexiteers would welcome HK'ers as "Our boys from Asia". There is a sense of brotherhood between UK, Australia, New Zealand and the USA and suspect that the HK can fit in just fine.
luckylion 6y ago
HK is pretty advanced, so 3mm HK citizens is different from 3mm from rural Pakistan. I don't see why the British wouldn't see that difference and be okay with immigration that improves the country.

by PakG1 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago

As far as I can tell, Brexit was largely driven by discontent around Polish migration. There's over a million Polish citizens in the UK. This is a pretty good read [1]. [1] https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understanding-the-brexit-vote-the-impact-of-polish-immigrants-on-euroscepticism/ https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/understand...

klipt 6y ago
Somehow, the fact that Britain seceded from the EU over one million foreigners, makes me skeptical that they'll offer citizenship to three million foreigners.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Citizens of the commonwealth aren't foreigners in the UK (and can vote if resident -- a Canadian citizen resident in the UK can vote in UK elections), and of course, Hong Kong is ex-commonwealth so I think it's more nuanced than you're giving it credit for. The Crown was sovereign over Hong Kong for more than 150 years.
- kmlx 6y ago
  it wasn't about that. they left the EU club because they thought were getting far less out of it then they should have. while I don't agree with that, I do understand it.
- Normal_gaussian 6y ago
  Framed as a move to spit in the eye of someone else (in this case China) it would be likely to gain overwhelming support.
Lio 6y ago
Poles are well thought of here. The meme of the hard working Polish builder is well known. I think one Pro-brexit faction created disinformation around Romanian immigrants. The other main brexit faction created a meme around “taking back control” from bureaucrats. Neither is based on reality.
- bad_user 6y ago
  Funny thing, but especially given the Covid situation and worries about crops, now they want those low skilled Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians back, fighting over them with Germany, Spain, Italy, etc.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  What is based in reality is that the law isn't applied to everyone equally. That has to do with opportunistic politics and self presentation.
- twelve40 6y ago
  So ok, honestly trying to understand this. You are saying a massive country-wide vote was decided based on a couple of bizarre myths ("Romanians and bureaucrats") propagated for some reason by some vaguely motivated groups, and majority (slim, but nonetheless) of the country made a decision on some ridiculous myths that have no basis in reality. What was the motivation for these lie-spreading groups to propagate those myths? How could a majority of a Western, best-educated probably in the whole world, about as democratic and core-value-believing country, be in a single moment swayed by a bunch of scammers like that? Was there any other basis for that, perhaps? Again, honest question, I know almost nothing about British politics, but dismissing a major vote in a very rich and educated country as lunacy seems ... not a great explanation?
  - Lio 6y ago
    The two groups are were Vote Leave and Leave EU. I don't want to derails a discussion about China effectively ending One Country Two Systems further but you can easily search for a description of their tactics if you want. You can also search for news on when the UK government report in to Russian interference in the vote will be released but I wouldn't hold your breath... Now back to what China is doing to the people of Hong Kong and why our companies are still outsourcing manufacturing to China without restriction.

Lio 6y ago

Personally I think Johnson just wants power and that Brexit was a useful tool for him to get it (at the expense of the country). He isn’t all in on the on far right stuff in the same way as Farage is. I think Johnson will follow through on give the Homg Kongers passports. Of course if the CPP wants to buy him off he might go that.

bsder 6y ago

> As far as I can tell, a lot of Brexit was driven by ... The problem with Brexit was the same with Trump--vague anger with no target. A bunch of different groups ascribed, often contradictory, concrete actions and values to the inchoate phenomenon. For Trump, this is embodied in "But he's not hurting the right people." Lots of people who voted for Trump wanted him to hurt their pet scapegoats, but the problem is that they were often the pet scapegoats for each other. For Brexit, you could take any idea (unified market, for example) and find Brexiteers who were both for and against it. This was doomed to a crash-out as there was no actual concrete proposal that could satisfy any more than a minority of Brexiteers. Ironically, revoking Brexit probably satisfies more voters than any concrete Brexit strategy.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

> a lot of Brexit was driven by anti-foreigner anti-immigration sentiment I don't know if you can make massive generalizations about people who voted to leave Europe. Because people voted for all sorts of different reasons. And it wasn't just racists who voted to leave Europe. Cunts did as well didn't they.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt1sC3rtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt1sC3rtM

mrtksn 6y ago

I did not live outside of London but I knew quite a few Brexiteers and my impression is that it wasn't about hating on races or foreigners as much as about national pride on being superior and different to Europeans. No non-skilled Eastern Europeans were coming, they all came for a job that their services were required and these jobs ranged from picking fruits to working in high-tech industries. Of course there were some people who would exploit the social security system but these were insignificant. With Brexit, the government is now the first step in the HR department and reducing meritocracy by introducing non-skill criteria in the hiring process. Brits pride themselves for being international and having a grasp on foreign cultures and I think rightfully so. Continentals would always think in their own terms and dismiss the stuff that they don't understand as "bakcwards civilisations stuff" but the Brits would actually put an effort to understand foreign cultures and understand why someone does something. I think this also plays role in the relations with countries like Turkey, where the UK understand the country much better than their much more closer European neighbours. That's why I think having 3 million HK'ers in UK would not be that hard. Some may even argue that HK'ers could fit even easier than many continental Europeans due to the history and cultural influence of the UK in HK. I bet many Brexiteers would welcome HK'ers as "Our boys from Asia". There is a sense of brotherhood between UK, Australia, New Zealand and the USA and suspect that the HK can fit in just fine.

luckylion 6y ago

HK is pretty advanced, so 3mm HK citizens is different from 3mm from rural Pakistan. I don't see why the British wouldn't see that difference and be okay with immigration that improves the country.