4 ms·

I'm reminded of the time someone actually put the "you could build an identical PC cheaper yourself" to the test back in 2013. https://www.extremetech.com/comp

I'm reminded of the time someone actually put the "you could build an identical PC cheaper yourself" to the test back in 2013. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/173695-apples-new-overpriced-10000-mac-pro-is-2000-cheaper-than-the-equivalent-windows-pc https://www.extremetech.com/computing/173695-apples-new-over... While I'm sure AMD's latest high-core count chips may be giving us new cheaper options, high priced Macs have typically been reasonably priced for their specs. More recently when the 27" 5K iMacs came out, I looked at the price of a 27" 5K IPS DCI-P3 monitor on Dell... it was only $100 less than the iMac, despite the Mac having a full computer in it, in addition to the display. People still complained that they were expensive.

monksy 6y ago
The PC version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_IHSRPVqwQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_IHSRPVqwQ
quickthrower2 6y ago
> on Dell That's why :-)
- 1000100_1000101 6y ago
  The Dell was the only 5K IPS DCI-P3 monitor I could find. That's why. DCI-P3 was new to consumer space. 5K was new to consumer space. IPS further limited the the ability to find a comparable screen.
  - binaryblitz 6y ago
    A lot of people, even in the HN/tech communities don't seem to understand that all monitors aren't created equally.
  - quickthrower2 6y ago
    Yeah the point is Dell ain't the cheapest. Clearly it is the only one from what you have added. I was making the point that saying something is cheaper than Dell ain't saying much.
techntoke 6y ago
Because you're looking at manufacturers that primarily cater to enterprise. There is a big difference if you look at MSI or Acer for monitors generally and build your own PC.
- xenadu02 6y ago
  The cheapest Kia is less expensive than a BMW. They both take you from point A to point B. Are you arguing that Kia is also a luxury brand? Or are you arguing that luxury brands aren't a thing? I honestly can't tell.
  - pfisch 6y ago
    Is Dell a luxury brand? I have never thought that. I would expect better parts from MSI.
    - bArray 6y ago
      I believe Alienware is a premium brand and it's a branch of Dell [1]. P.S. I miss the ridiculous Alienware XP themes [2]. [1] https://www.dell.com/en-us/gaming/alienware https://www.dell.com/en-us/gaming/alienware [2] https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IpMO_Mx-ARM/UYvCW7ikojI/AAAAAAAAAWo/XEE118J3uGY/s1600/Alenware+XP.jpg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IpMO_Mx-ARM/UYvCW7ikojI/AAAAAAAAA...
      - pfisch 6y ago
        I guess alienware is, you're right. Not like...a desirable luxury brand to me even though I am a professional game developer, but it is a luxury brand.
    - TimSchumann 6y ago
      In the Monitor world, Dell and HP’s business line are among the best in class, and have been for some time.
      - 6y ago
Spooky23 6y ago
That’s often the case. Apple is way better than Dell and HP on supply chain stuff, but their range is narrower. Dell has like 10000 configurations and Apple has like 100, with 80% of sales being stock SKUs. Even with laptops, they tend to offer at least one model that is an incredible value due to scale. If you need to configure, however, forget it. Back in 2008/9, I bought about 300 cheese graters at a net savings of about $180k vs other workstations if memory serves. It was a happy coincidence that our need matched Apple’s config.
ta_8963u5892389 6y ago
I've never used either of these computers, but maxing the specs on a System 76 Thelio Massive gets you: - 2x Xeon Platinum 8280 (28 Cores each, 2.7 - 4.0 GHz) - 2x 768 GB ECC DDR4 Memory (6x128GB per CPU, 1.5TB total) - 1x 2TB NVME drive - 1x 28TB SSD - 4x Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti (11 GB, 4352 CUDA Cores each) - $ 53,356 I've never used either or anything remotely close to either that or the mac pro, so I could be missing something, but the system76 seems like much better value than the fully maxed Mac Pro at $ 53,899
- rjvs 6y ago
  It may be better value for your particular use case. It depends entirely on the requirements, surely? If you need the faster SSD, hardware disk encryption, ability to run MacOS or some other feature that the Mac Pro has over the system you specified, that might have a different answer than if you need the maximum number of CUDA cores.
  - krageon 6y ago
    The only thing you've mentioned that a mac actually has over any other machine is the ability to (legally) run OS X. Maybe you think that's worth a few thousand euros. Most people don't agree with you.
    - SpelingBeeChamp 6y ago
      And, from my understanding, run it with something akin to stability. Am I wrong that Hackintoshes today are still for people who don't mind regularly chasing down pretty significant bugs (like "bluetooth doesn't turn on" style)?
Causality1 6y ago
They didn't make the profit on the first sale. They made the profit on the next sale after the user finds it nearly impossible to upgrade and buys a new computer instead.
corylulu 6y ago
What I'd contest on this is the fact that almost nobody needs best in spec in every category... Yeah, building the exact spec might not be cheaper, but it's also not what's needed to match the performance in any 1 or more particular use case. Also, nothing will every justify a $1k monitor desk mount.
- labster 6y ago
  Yes, clearly you should take that $1000 to buy the "I Am Rich" phone app instead.
jml7c5 6y ago
That article is incorrect; their guess of equivalent GPUs was about $5600 too high. The FirePro D700 used in the Mac Pro was essentially a rebadged consumer card. (It's surprising, but none of the GPUs in the Mac Pro officially supported ECC.) Instead of two FirePro W9000 cards ($6800), they should have specified two HD7970 6GB cards ($1200).
ksec 6y ago
This isn't just in tech. I am still very surprised vast majority people dont know how to compare. And that is why branding and marketing matters. I used to be furious at marketing. They are always hype and spin. But the older I get the more appreciate I have for it. Not because I agree with them now, but generally speaking consumers just aren't very good at judging values and knowing what they want. Marketing helps that, and push things forward.
fomine3 6y ago
27" 5K iMacs are really low-priced. It's outlier.

monksy 6y ago

The PC version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_IHSRPVqwQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_IHSRPVqwQ

quickthrower2 6y ago

> on Dell That's why :-)

1000100_1000101 6y ago
The Dell was the only 5K IPS DCI-P3 monitor I could find. That's why. DCI-P3 was new to consumer space. 5K was new to consumer space. IPS further limited the the ability to find a comparable screen.
- binaryblitz 6y ago
  A lot of people, even in the HN/tech communities don't seem to understand that all monitors aren't created equally.
- quickthrower2 6y ago
  Yeah the point is Dell ain't the cheapest. Clearly it is the only one from what you have added. I was making the point that saying something is cheaper than Dell ain't saying much.

techntoke 6y ago

Because you're looking at manufacturers that primarily cater to enterprise. There is a big difference if you look at MSI or Acer for monitors generally and build your own PC.

xenadu02 6y ago
The cheapest Kia is less expensive than a BMW. They both take you from point A to point B. Are you arguing that Kia is also a luxury brand? Or are you arguing that luxury brands aren't a thing? I honestly can't tell.
- pfisch 6y ago
  Is Dell a luxury brand? I have never thought that. I would expect better parts from MSI.
  - bArray 6y ago
    I believe Alienware is a premium brand and it's a branch of Dell [1]. P.S. I miss the ridiculous Alienware XP themes [2]. [1] https://www.dell.com/en-us/gaming/alienware https://www.dell.com/en-us/gaming/alienware [2] https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IpMO_Mx-ARM/UYvCW7ikojI/AAAAAAAAAWo/XEE118J3uGY/s1600/Alenware+XP.jpg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IpMO_Mx-ARM/UYvCW7ikojI/AAAAAAAAA...
    - pfisch 6y ago
      I guess alienware is, you're right. Not like...a desirable luxury brand to me even though I am a professional game developer, but it is a luxury brand.
  - TimSchumann 6y ago
    In the Monitor world, Dell and HP’s business line are among the best in class, and have been for some time.
    - 6y ago

Spooky23 6y ago

That’s often the case. Apple is way better than Dell and HP on supply chain stuff, but their range is narrower. Dell has like 10000 configurations and Apple has like 100, with 80% of sales being stock SKUs. Even with laptops, they tend to offer at least one model that is an incredible value due to scale. If you need to configure, however, forget it. Back in 2008/9, I bought about 300 cheese graters at a net savings of about $180k vs other workstations if memory serves. It was a happy coincidence that our need matched Apple’s config.

ta_8963u5892389 6y ago

I've never used either of these computers, but maxing the specs on a System 76 Thelio Massive gets you: - 2x Xeon Platinum 8280 (28 Cores each, 2.7 - 4.0 GHz) - 2x 768 GB ECC DDR4 Memory (6x128GB per CPU, 1.5TB total) - 1x 2TB NVME drive - 1x 28TB SSD - 4x Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti (11 GB, 4352 CUDA Cores each) - $ 53,356 I've never used either or anything remotely close to either that or the mac pro, so I could be missing something, but the system76 seems like much better value than the fully maxed Mac Pro at $ 53,899

rjvs 6y ago
It may be better value for your particular use case. It depends entirely on the requirements, surely? If you need the faster SSD, hardware disk encryption, ability to run MacOS or some other feature that the Mac Pro has over the system you specified, that might have a different answer than if you need the maximum number of CUDA cores.
- krageon 6y ago
  The only thing you've mentioned that a mac actually has over any other machine is the ability to (legally) run OS X. Maybe you think that's worth a few thousand euros. Most people don't agree with you.
  - SpelingBeeChamp 6y ago
    And, from my understanding, run it with something akin to stability. Am I wrong that Hackintoshes today are still for people who don't mind regularly chasing down pretty significant bugs (like "bluetooth doesn't turn on" style)?

Causality1 6y ago

They didn't make the profit on the first sale. They made the profit on the next sale after the user finds it nearly impossible to upgrade and buys a new computer instead.

corylulu 6y ago

What I'd contest on this is the fact that almost nobody needs best in spec in every category... Yeah, building the exact spec might not be cheaper, but it's also not what's needed to match the performance in any 1 or more particular use case. Also, nothing will every justify a $1k monitor desk mount.

labster 6y ago
Yes, clearly you should take that $1000 to buy the "I Am Rich" phone app instead.

jml7c5 6y ago

That article is incorrect; their guess of equivalent GPUs was about $5600 too high. The FirePro D700 used in the Mac Pro was essentially a rebadged consumer card. (It's surprising, but none of the GPUs in the Mac Pro officially supported ECC.) Instead of two FirePro W9000 cards ($6800), they should have specified two HD7970 6GB cards ($1200).

ksec 6y ago

This isn't just in tech. I am still very surprised vast majority people dont know how to compare. And that is why branding and marketing matters. I used to be furious at marketing. They are always hype and spin. But the older I get the more appreciate I have for it. Not because I agree with them now, but generally speaking consumers just aren't very good at judging values and knowing what they want. Marketing helps that, and push things forward.

fomine3 6y ago

27" 5K iMacs are really low-priced. It's outlier.