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I think this sort of response was inevitable and will be seen in more and more nations. China bans most of the popular websites and apps (including Wikipedia).
by mathnmusic 6y ago
I think this sort of response was inevitable and will be seen in more and more nations. China bans most of the popular websites and apps (including Wikipedia). The most recent trigger was the border standoff between India and China where Indian citizens could see and read both governments' responses, but Chinese citizens were only told Chinese govt's talking points.
This seems like yet another instance of the paradox of tolerance (reciprocity is a must have for a tolerant/liberal/globalized society): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- chrischen 6y agoThe China censors things so we should too stance just seems to strengthen their position of censorship...
- foepys 6y agoQuite the opposite. China (the country, not China the economy) is investing billions into developing tech companies to surveil their citizens. Those apps are all centrally controlled by the Chinese government. They can freely suppress discussions without you ever knowing. Hell, they don't even need to censor it but only need to make it less discoverable. As soon as those apps reach the western hemisphere (or just anything outside China) and become dominant communication mediums, the Chinese government will be able to dictate opinion in the West.
- tacheiordache 6y agoThats exactly how HN keep misteriously pushing things out of the top 30 no matter how many upvotes.. Also theres control in the flagging mechansim - as in shrugs, we don’t know, it was flagged by some users... shrugs again.. Im just making the case about HN not because I disagree with their job of keeping things civil, in fact this is much less toxic a platform than many others. My point is that whoever has the control can dictate whatever they see fit or serves their interest. For that reason I’d never use TikTok, not even to see what it is about because of who is backing it
- StreamBright 6y agoI know something similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel
- jryle70 6y agoIn-Q-Tel is well known here. Do we know enough about Chinese investment? Are Huawei and ZTE private companies, private with state's investment, co-owned by the state, or owned by the states to further Chinese's causes with a private facade? There should be more discussion about them here.
- dumb1224 6y agoI think quite the contrary, China has very limited interest in using propaganda to influence the western-sphere. I used to be very inline with these news but as my old friends from youth progress in their careers in China (many in those 'state based' sectors), I grow increasingly skeptical as I know more about their mundane jobs. Yes a lot of policies seem to be from a backward society, but actually a lot are benign and these perceived 'agenda' don't really exist in real life. To be quite frank technology-wise China is still vastly behind world's frontier.
- dumb1224 6y agoI got a little baby boy so I couldn't edit in time. Apologies if the comment above doesn't contribute much to the discussion. I don't want to come across as irrational/delusional. What I wanted to convey is that through my friends I get some insights as how that technology involved is put to work for the government. What I understand has some distance from what's been reported. That's all.
- chrischen 6y agoWhat do you think the ad networks and social networks are all already doing? Reddit just deleted a whole subreddit... (which ultimately moved to its own website). At some point it's not really about censorship or freedom of speech anymore... and more about not letting the other guys win.
- xster 6y agoThough if you apply your argument with rigor and reciprocity was in play, more countries should ban american social media which censors geopolitical rivals https://thegrayzone.com/2020/01/12/us-pressure-social-media-censoring-suspending-venezuela-iran-syria/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/01/12/us-pressure-social-media-...
- AlchemistCamp 6y agoVenezuela, Iran and Syria do censor US media and it's far more extensive than any censorship of foreign media within the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Venezuela
- DeonPenny 6y agoThey do censor american social media. Like china and north korea obviously do
- mathnmusic 6y agoIt's bound to happen. See the political battles being fought for data localisation, and control of Internet governing bodies.
- product50 6y agoAmerica will literally fuck with you if you start doing this at scale. India can ban Chinese app since India can do this. China needed to understand this before escalating the border tensions with India.
- kilroy_jones 6y agoSo you're equating the banning of accounts to the blocking of the majority of internet?
- bad_user 6y agoThe paradox of tolerance is bullshit though, as it's not based on empirical evidence. It's just armchair philosophy used as justification for intolerance by intellectuals, the mental gymnastic people need to get over their cognitive dissonance. AFAIK Plato came up with it to justify autocracy. That says it all actually.
- jjoonathan 6y ago> The paradox of tolerance is bullshit though So do you tolerate intolerance?
- bad_user 6y agoSorry, not falling in that trap ;-)
- joshuamorton 6y agoIt is impossible to be tolerant of all things. The paradox of tolerance is one way of picking which things to be intolerant toward. There are lots of others, mostly worse. Ultimately though, we all have to pick.
- zem 6y agoet voila - we have a paradox
- bad_user 6y agoNo, just a logical fallacy.
- jjoonathan 6y agoYeah, because you know it's a paradox.
- pppaul 6y agodon't we all tolerate intolerance on some level/topics? it seems to be perfectly acceptable to be intolerant to some groups of people and religions/ideologies.
- apta 6y ago> I think this sort of response was inevitable and will be seen in more and more nations. China bans most of the popular websites and apps (including Wikipedia). Hopefully the rest of the world follows suit and bans Chinese apps and websites.
- kanox 6y agoHow is "tolerance" relevant to banning apps based on national origin? This is nothing but good old fashion economic escalation.
- cmonnow 6y ago> paradox of tolerance Unnecessary use of the 'paradox' label. If a criminal shoots a cop, that is violence. If a cop shoots the criminal back, is that the 'paradox of violence' ? If a surgeon cuts open a patient with a knife, to treat a tumor, is that the 'paradox of violence' ? Violence used to curb violence is peace. Peace used to ignore violence is violence. There is nothing 'paradoxical' about not tolerating the intolerant. That is basic justice.
- class4behavior 6y ago>Unnecessary use of the 'paradox' label. No, it is not. You just didn't read up what the paradox is—or what a paradox is for that matter.
- cmonnow 6y agoTolerating the intolerant, or intolerating the intolerant - that's not a paradox. It's no different from the police using violence on violent people.
- Aunche 6y agoHow does this have anything to do with tolerance? India has never been known to highly value tolerance, and this move is about national security rather than censorship on the Chinese apps.