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> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departments) are always headed by a experts in the field, same with lawyers, architects and finance. But we are managed by people that are not experts.

whichdan 6y ago
Please don't assume everyone on HN is male.
- lollipoplol 6y ago
  Vast majority of users on HN are male... He is just talking to them.
- bt4u3 6y ago
  I don't think anyone are assuming everyone is, but assuming a specific reader is male is gonna be correct more often than not
- corpMaverick 6y ago
  > They are more socially aware than we are Sorry for the confusion. We as in "We men" not as in "We HN readers". I was just speaking as a man.
- temporama1 6y ago
  Yawn
- loco5niner 6y ago
  Making baseless complaints like this doesn't help your crusade.
na85 6y ago
>They are more socially aware than we are. Is there any evidence that women are more likely to choose careers with high social prestige? I find this doubtful, since in North America at least the traditionally female-dominated job sectors seem to be the ones with lower social prestige. Compare the prestige of a nurse with a cardiac surgeon: which is more stereotypically male?
- lollipoplol 6y ago
  This also isn't true in places other than North America. In countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, there is way more gender parity in IT than in the USA.
  - GhostVII 6y ago
    In poorer countries like the ones you listed, the benefits of a higher paying job are more likely to outweigh the social costs than they would be in a more wealthy country. So the social aspect becomes less important.
  - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
    Are we really sure? China was said to be different, and yet when I worked there, we were called out for having worse gender diversity than our stateside counterparts. It turned out that while China produced many more female CS graduates, they didn’t stay in technical positions long enough to solve gender diversity problems after graduation. India also has problems it seems, eg http://bwsmartcities.businessworld.in/article/Is-India-Inc-Cracking-the-Gender-Diversity-Code-/28-02-2020-185195/ http://bwsmartcities.businessworld.in/article/Is-India-Inc-C.... I wouldn’t say any country has really solved this problem.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    In India its not, lot more males compared to females.
- lobotryas 6y ago
  You are saying nurses, teachers and social workers have “low social prestige”? People worship the ground these folks walk on for their “selfless sacrifice” and what-not.
logicchains 6y ago
>we don't get fancy titles Some people get titles like "code ninja", although I suppose "fancy" isn't really the right word for that.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Yes we make ourselves look like clowns rather than professionals. It's terrible I don't know why we're doing this to ourselves.
  - saiya-jin 6y ago
    Immature is the word that comes to my mind. And yes, that generally doesn't produce much respect (or attraction from other sex), does it
    - thegeomaster 6y ago
      Right, a lot of FAANG companies' offices look like kindergartens. I get that all of the perks are "cool" to someone, but to me it's just embarrassing.
      - racl101 6y ago
        It also doesn't help that the perceived uniform of the programmer is a hoodie or an ironic t-shirt and chinos style of pants or similar regalia. Like, that just doesn't look cool. I've been saying this for years. It's no wonder it doesn't look sexy nor command much respect. Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit. Sure, it feels good, but that's the same rationale for wearing crocs. You feel great until you look down and realize you're wearing crocs.
        restalis 6y ago
        "Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit." I think you got it wrong. That suit guy has to wear it, because his trade demands it, most likely for that image which has to be conveyed. That programmer can afford to wear that hoodie and still to demand his salary, yet nothing limits him to the hoodie outfit, you see?
User23 6y ago
> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field You're right of course, but I'm going to spell out more clearly what you're saying for those of us here who don't get it. Women avoid computing science because it's populated by low status men and women are repulsed by low status men. Women in tech are either low status themselves, quickly move up into management, or exit the field. Don't hate me for saying this, anyone who is intellectually honest can observe that it's true.
- crakenzak 6y ago
  what the fuck did I just read hahahaaha
- thu2111 6y ago
  That's a big leap - is it supported by anything? Primary school teaching and nursing are low status professions, and they're both dominated by women. If you're going to try and explain gender imbalances exclusively via reference to status you need to explain why it's not universally predictive. Lots of people have spent lots of time looking at this. What's predictive is working with systems vs people. Jobs that involve tinkering with machines all day = men. Jobs that involve people and especially with a caring aspect to it = women. Finance is largely about abstract "machines" like markets, where you never see the faces of the people you're trading with = men. Not many jobs are totally balanced 50/50 men/women, but those that are tend to be perceived as having a blend of systems/people work e.g. sales (where sales includes jobs like tele-sales or travelling sales).
  - User23 6y ago
    > Primary school teaching and nursing are low status professions, and they're both dominated by women. If you're going to try and explain gender imbalances exclusively via reference to status you need to explain why it's not universally predictive. It's because men and women judge status differently. The statistics on revealed preference are clear: for example, in aggregate male doctors are happy to marry nurses, but female doctors are not happy to marry male nurses[1]. I understand that it's taboo to acknowledge double standards with respect to sex these days, but the data is solid and clear so I'm going to present it in the name of intellectual curiosity. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-who-marries-whom/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-who-marries-whom/
burntoutfire 6y ago
Manufacturing firms (e.g. auto manufacturers) are very often managed by outsiders.
racl101 6y ago
> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Totally agree. I remember talking to a girl in math class, who, while she liked the idea of using Python to solve problems, when I tried to extoll the virtues of CS to her so that maybe she'd take more courses, she regaled to me how her dad is a programmer and how miserable his job appeared to her.
apta 6y ago
> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. That's assuming women are after social status, which is a strong claim.
JSavageOne 6y ago
True, though I'd say the main reason there are practically no women in CS is because women tend to be more social, and software engineering is one of the least social professions in existence. I would never recommend this profession to anyone who doesn't have the personality to be in front of a computer alone all day working on tedious puzzles.

whichdan 6y ago

Please don't assume everyone on HN is male.

lollipoplol 6y ago
Vast majority of users on HN are male... He is just talking to them.
bt4u3 6y ago
I don't think anyone are assuming everyone is, but assuming a specific reader is male is gonna be correct more often than not
corpMaverick 6y ago
> They are more socially aware than we are Sorry for the confusion. We as in "We men" not as in "We HN readers". I was just speaking as a man.
temporama1 6y ago
Yawn
loco5niner 6y ago
Making baseless complaints like this doesn't help your crusade.

na85 6y ago

>They are more socially aware than we are. Is there any evidence that women are more likely to choose careers with high social prestige? I find this doubtful, since in North America at least the traditionally female-dominated job sectors seem to be the ones with lower social prestige. Compare the prestige of a nurse with a cardiac surgeon: which is more stereotypically male?

lollipoplol 6y ago
This also isn't true in places other than North America. In countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, there is way more gender parity in IT than in the USA.
- GhostVII 6y ago
  In poorer countries like the ones you listed, the benefits of a higher paying job are more likely to outweigh the social costs than they would be in a more wealthy country. So the social aspect becomes less important.
- seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  Are we really sure? China was said to be different, and yet when I worked there, we were called out for having worse gender diversity than our stateside counterparts. It turned out that while China produced many more female CS graduates, they didn’t stay in technical positions long enough to solve gender diversity problems after graduation. India also has problems it seems, eg http://bwsmartcities.businessworld.in/article/Is-India-Inc-Cracking-the-Gender-Diversity-Code-/28-02-2020-185195/ http://bwsmartcities.businessworld.in/article/Is-India-Inc-C.... I wouldn’t say any country has really solved this problem.
- sumedh 6y ago
  In India its not, lot more males compared to females.
lobotryas 6y ago
You are saying nurses, teachers and social workers have “low social prestige”? People worship the ground these folks walk on for their “selfless sacrifice” and what-not.

logicchains 6y ago

>we don't get fancy titles Some people get titles like "code ninja", although I suppose "fancy" isn't really the right word for that.

chrisseaton 6y ago
Yes we make ourselves look like clowns rather than professionals. It's terrible I don't know why we're doing this to ourselves.
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  Immature is the word that comes to my mind. And yes, that generally doesn't produce much respect (or attraction from other sex), does it
  - thegeomaster 6y ago
    Right, a lot of FAANG companies' offices look like kindergartens. I get that all of the perks are "cool" to someone, but to me it's just embarrassing.
    - racl101 6y ago
      It also doesn't help that the perceived uniform of the programmer is a hoodie or an ironic t-shirt and chinos style of pants or similar regalia. Like, that just doesn't look cool. I've been saying this for years. It's no wonder it doesn't look sexy nor command much respect. Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit. Sure, it feels good, but that's the same rationale for wearing crocs. You feel great until you look down and realize you're wearing crocs.
      - restalis 6y ago
        "Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit." I think you got it wrong. That suit guy has to wear it, because his trade demands it, most likely for that image which has to be conveyed. That programmer can afford to wear that hoodie and still to demand his salary, yet nothing limits him to the hoodie outfit, you see?

User23 6y ago

> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field You're right of course, but I'm going to spell out more clearly what you're saying for those of us here who don't get it. Women avoid computing science because it's populated by low status men and women are repulsed by low status men. Women in tech are either low status themselves, quickly move up into management, or exit the field. Don't hate me for saying this, anyone who is intellectually honest can observe that it's true.

crakenzak 6y ago
what the fuck did I just read hahahaaha
thu2111 6y ago
That's a big leap - is it supported by anything? Primary school teaching and nursing are low status professions, and they're both dominated by women. If you're going to try and explain gender imbalances exclusively via reference to status you need to explain why it's not universally predictive. Lots of people have spent lots of time looking at this. What's predictive is working with systems vs people. Jobs that involve tinkering with machines all day = men. Jobs that involve people and especially with a caring aspect to it = women. Finance is largely about abstract "machines" like markets, where you never see the faces of the people you're trading with = men. Not many jobs are totally balanced 50/50 men/women, but those that are tend to be perceived as having a blend of systems/people work e.g. sales (where sales includes jobs like tele-sales or travelling sales).
- User23 6y ago
  > Primary school teaching and nursing are low status professions, and they're both dominated by women. If you're going to try and explain gender imbalances exclusively via reference to status you need to explain why it's not universally predictive. It's because men and women judge status differently. The statistics on revealed preference are clear: for example, in aggregate male doctors are happy to marry nurses, but female doctors are not happy to marry male nurses[1]. I understand that it's taboo to acknowledge double standards with respect to sex these days, but the data is solid and clear so I'm going to present it in the name of intellectual curiosity. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-who-marries-whom/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-who-marries-whom/

burntoutfire 6y ago

Manufacturing firms (e.g. auto manufacturers) are very often managed by outsiders.

racl101 6y ago

> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Totally agree. I remember talking to a girl in math class, who, while she liked the idea of using Python to solve problems, when I tried to extoll the virtues of CS to her so that maybe she'd take more courses, she regaled to me how her dad is a programmer and how miserable his job appeared to her.

apta 6y ago

> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. That's assuming women are after social status, which is a strong claim.

JSavageOne 6y ago

True, though I'd say the main reason there are practically no women in CS is because women tend to be more social, and software engineering is one of the least social professions in existence. I would never recommend this profession to anyone who doesn't have the personality to be in front of a computer alone all day working on tedious puzzles.