6 ms·

Why would you major in computer science if you want to work as a software engineer? It's like getting a physics degree to become a civil engineer.

loremipsium 6y ago
because it's what you need to get a food in the door.
ethanbond 6y ago
Using your analogy, probably because there aren’t many well established civil engineering degree programs. I don’t know what “practitioner program” could get you close to a guaranteed spot at a top software firm. I’ve been out of school for a few years and figure this stuff has been changing fast though, so that perception may be out of date. Never even heard of a software engineering degree. Only computer engineering or computer science, either of which may include some software engineering courses.
- ghaff 6y ago
  There are certainly various more nuts-and-bolts certification programs out there, but if you want to do software stuff and you're going to an "elite" school you'll tend to major in some variant of CS--whether it's located in the math/sciences or the engineering school.
- exdsq 6y ago
  They do exist. Even Oxford has an MSc in SoftEng.
  - adwww 6y ago
    Doesn't Oxford just automatically boost all bachelors to masters a year after graduating though?
    - exdsq 6y ago
      Yes, you’re awarded an MA (Oxon) after a few years of graduating, but this is a ‘proper’ Masters course
      - heraclius 6y ago
        The fourth year of an undergrad also gives an “undergraduate master’s”.
        exdsq 6y ago
        Yeah, this too. What I mean is that the MSc in SoftEng is a "normal" Masters program. Oxford has too many weird caveats to cover :D
    - stan_rogers 6y ago
      That's just Master of Arts (MA). MSc, MEng, MLitt, etc., are not automatic.
- monkeycantype 6y ago
  This might be due to different naming conventions in different countries. Software engineering is a common degree in Australia. Example: https://study.unimelb.edu.au/find/courses/graduate/master-of-engineering-software/ https://study.unimelb.edu.au/find/courses/graduate/master-of... Though I doubt the content is that different to courses in other countries
  - ekimekim 6y ago
    I did a BSc(Comp Sci) in Australia (USyd) starting in 2010. A lot of my friends were doing the Software Engineering degree. We did the same courses and went to the same lectures, the only real differences were a) what faculty we were officially part of, and b) the words on the piece of paper we got at the end. (I'm stretching the truth a little here because I also did a Maths major in addition to Comp Sci, but that was not part of my Comp Sci requirements so I think it's still valid to the point I'm trying to make, that the two degrees are functionally identical with different names)
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
I'm not sure what you're saying here, that you don't need formal education to do software engineering? I mean on the one side I agree with you because there's so much you can learn online right now, but the same is true for other branches of engineering and STEM as a whole.
- non-entity 6y ago
  > but the same is true for other branches of engineering and STEM as a whole. Is it though, my understanding is that for a lot of engineering programs and science courses, much of the value comes from labs and hands on experience with equipment that a consumer cant get access to.
- larzang 6y ago
  Less that you don't need education and more that the education of a CS degree has little relation to the practice of software development. It's probably improved, but when I was in college 20 years ago CS was something you did abstractly on a whiteboard, it's computer SCIENCE. That's certainly valuable to society as a whole and certain fields, but it has little bearing on building websites or business CRUD or other things the vast majority of us are doing. I don't need a new hire to be able to implement a sort algorithm from first principles, I need them to know git and how to write unit tests and how to communicate with a team effectively.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    It is often used to check if a candidate can master complex topics, but I would disagree that formal education doesn't help for software engineering. Asked the other way around, what would you suggest as education for someone who wants to be a software engineer?
tomerbd 6y ago
To develop the thinking. Rigorous algorithmic and mathematic thinking. Studying physics is also good.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Exactly. So the implied premise of this article (that we should see loads of CS majors because people want to work in software) is faulty. They can just as easily study physics, chemistry, math, logic, etc.
- adwww 6y ago
  At my software company I think we have more physics graduates than software engineer or comp sci. We use mostly Python and Go btw, which I think might affect things a bit. Graduate schemes for those computing degrees tend to be at big corporate dot net shops.
exdsq 6y ago
I was in a meeting just this morning regarding how we measure the performance of something which ended up with reading a paper on queue theory to help with the design. CS and SE are very related. Also, Civil Engineers do learn physics as part of their course.
- boomlinde 6y ago
  > Also, Civil Engineers do learn physics as part of their course. The analogy is apt for exactly that reason. Some knowledge in physics is fundamentally required, but for the civil engineer it's only professionally relevant to the extent that they can apply it to solve practical problems. A solid understanding of physics (and indeed how to come out wiser after reading a paper relevant to your field) is just one part of their expected skill set.
  - exdsq 6y ago
    What would you learn in a BSc Software Engineering that's not in a BSc Computer Science course that's not going to become redundant after a couple years and couldn't be covered in a module? I have thought about this before and argued for Software Engineering to be a specific course/field, but it's just too ephemeral at the moment with a lack of 'core' elements to warrant a 3 year course. Edit: To be clear, I want the field to mature and develop into something similar to other engineering fields like EE, but it's not there yet.
    - offset1 6y ago
      Some software engineering studies, even sometimes called information technology (Australia, Netherlands, Germany) are theoretically equivalent to most of the general CS studies you find in the United States. It all depends on the curriculum at the end of the day.
    - geogra4 6y ago
      I agree. I think there is a definite need for real 'Software Engineering' discipline that focuses on things like project estimations, timelines, codebase management, best practices, etc.
easterncalculus 6y ago
This is an incredibly flawed analogy. I can say safely that software engineering students (SE specifically, and not CS) have at a general level a massive amount of missing knowledge compared to their CS counterparts. Practically every SE concept either is or can be taught on the job. I don't hire but I can safely say that if I ever did I would hire CS graduates long before someone who calls everything they use an 'app' and couldn't explain tail recursion to me. I will never understand how SE people can brush past basic concepts in favor of specific frameworks that might be out of favor by the time they graduate. SE students tend to miss fundamental parts of creating good applications while they study how to do so (security, privacy, performance (!), etc). This gap creates a liability in the job markets they saturate, as well. This culture of companies that hire SE majors and SE degree programs is pretty lax when it comes to the stuff that isn't arbitrary software framework knowledge. Frankly, the 'optimization' of CS has been a disaster. Buggy software can cause just as many damaging or long term effects as poorly designed buildings or machines, but in none of the programs that would output people capable of creating those do we see a movement supporting 'practical' knowledge over the basics. It's incredibly short-sighted, and at the very least, it means smaller CS programs.
- offset1 6y ago
  It all depends on the university and the curriculum. Some universities here provide only "software engineering" or "information technology" programs that are equivalent to their computer science counter part in countries like the US. Sure, you can learn topics like requirements engineering on the job (often an underrated subject if you really want to do it well), but the same thing can be said for literally any of the CS courses.. At the end of the day, the curriculum is really what matters for a person. Actually, you can even argue that "computer science" is not even a real science (similar with many other studies that have "science" in their name). Heck, I'd say software engineering is closer to actual "engineering" than computer science is to actual "science".
manfredo 6y ago
What computer science means varies from school to school. At many University I only wrote proofs for 2 of my CS classes. The rest of my classes were spent writing code.

loremipsium 6y ago

because it's what you need to get a food in the door.

ethanbond 6y ago

Using your analogy, probably because there aren’t many well established civil engineering degree programs. I don’t know what “practitioner program” could get you close to a guaranteed spot at a top software firm. I’ve been out of school for a few years and figure this stuff has been changing fast though, so that perception may be out of date. Never even heard of a software engineering degree. Only computer engineering or computer science, either of which may include some software engineering courses.

ghaff 6y ago
There are certainly various more nuts-and-bolts certification programs out there, but if you want to do software stuff and you're going to an "elite" school you'll tend to major in some variant of CS--whether it's located in the math/sciences or the engineering school.
exdsq 6y ago
They do exist. Even Oxford has an MSc in SoftEng.
- adwww 6y ago
  Doesn't Oxford just automatically boost all bachelors to masters a year after graduating though?
  - exdsq 6y ago
    Yes, you’re awarded an MA (Oxon) after a few years of graduating, but this is a ‘proper’ Masters course
    - heraclius 6y ago
      The fourth year of an undergrad also gives an “undergraduate master’s”.
      - exdsq 6y ago
        Yeah, this too. What I mean is that the MSc in SoftEng is a "normal" Masters program. Oxford has too many weird caveats to cover :D
  - stan_rogers 6y ago
    That's just Master of Arts (MA). MSc, MEng, MLitt, etc., are not automatic.
monkeycantype 6y ago
This might be due to different naming conventions in different countries. Software engineering is a common degree in Australia. Example: https://study.unimelb.edu.au/find/courses/graduate/master-of-engineering-software/ https://study.unimelb.edu.au/find/courses/graduate/master-of... Though I doubt the content is that different to courses in other countries
- ekimekim 6y ago
  I did a BSc(Comp Sci) in Australia (USyd) starting in 2010. A lot of my friends were doing the Software Engineering degree. We did the same courses and went to the same lectures, the only real differences were a) what faculty we were officially part of, and b) the words on the piece of paper we got at the end. (I'm stretching the truth a little here because I also did a Maths major in addition to Comp Sci, but that was not part of my Comp Sci requirements so I think it's still valid to the point I'm trying to make, that the two degrees are functionally identical with different names)

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

I'm not sure what you're saying here, that you don't need formal education to do software engineering? I mean on the one side I agree with you because there's so much you can learn online right now, but the same is true for other branches of engineering and STEM as a whole.

non-entity 6y ago
> but the same is true for other branches of engineering and STEM as a whole. Is it though, my understanding is that for a lot of engineering programs and science courses, much of the value comes from labs and hands on experience with equipment that a consumer cant get access to.
larzang 6y ago
Less that you don't need education and more that the education of a CS degree has little relation to the practice of software development. It's probably improved, but when I was in college 20 years ago CS was something you did abstractly on a whiteboard, it's computer SCIENCE. That's certainly valuable to society as a whole and certain fields, but it has little bearing on building websites or business CRUD or other things the vast majority of us are doing. I don't need a new hire to be able to implement a sort algorithm from first principles, I need them to know git and how to write unit tests and how to communicate with a team effectively.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  It is often used to check if a candidate can master complex topics, but I would disagree that formal education doesn't help for software engineering. Asked the other way around, what would you suggest as education for someone who wants to be a software engineer?

tomerbd 6y ago

To develop the thinking. Rigorous algorithmic and mathematic thinking. Studying physics is also good.

ForHackernews 6y ago
Exactly. So the implied premise of this article (that we should see loads of CS majors because people want to work in software) is faulty. They can just as easily study physics, chemistry, math, logic, etc.
adwww 6y ago
At my software company I think we have more physics graduates than software engineer or comp sci. We use mostly Python and Go btw, which I think might affect things a bit. Graduate schemes for those computing degrees tend to be at big corporate dot net shops.

exdsq 6y ago

I was in a meeting just this morning regarding how we measure the performance of something which ended up with reading a paper on queue theory to help with the design. CS and SE are very related. Also, Civil Engineers do learn physics as part of their course.

boomlinde 6y ago
> Also, Civil Engineers do learn physics as part of their course. The analogy is apt for exactly that reason. Some knowledge in physics is fundamentally required, but for the civil engineer it's only professionally relevant to the extent that they can apply it to solve practical problems. A solid understanding of physics (and indeed how to come out wiser after reading a paper relevant to your field) is just one part of their expected skill set.
- exdsq 6y ago
  What would you learn in a BSc Software Engineering that's not in a BSc Computer Science course that's not going to become redundant after a couple years and couldn't be covered in a module? I have thought about this before and argued for Software Engineering to be a specific course/field, but it's just too ephemeral at the moment with a lack of 'core' elements to warrant a 3 year course. Edit: To be clear, I want the field to mature and develop into something similar to other engineering fields like EE, but it's not there yet.
  - offset1 6y ago
    Some software engineering studies, even sometimes called information technology (Australia, Netherlands, Germany) are theoretically equivalent to most of the general CS studies you find in the United States. It all depends on the curriculum at the end of the day.
  - geogra4 6y ago
    I agree. I think there is a definite need for real 'Software Engineering' discipline that focuses on things like project estimations, timelines, codebase management, best practices, etc.

easterncalculus 6y ago

This is an incredibly flawed analogy. I can say safely that software engineering students (SE specifically, and not CS) have at a general level a massive amount of missing knowledge compared to their CS counterparts. Practically every SE concept either is or can be taught on the job. I don't hire but I can safely say that if I ever did I would hire CS graduates long before someone who calls everything they use an 'app' and couldn't explain tail recursion to me. I will never understand how SE people can brush past basic concepts in favor of specific frameworks that might be out of favor by the time they graduate. SE students tend to miss fundamental parts of creating good applications while they study how to do so (security, privacy, performance (!), etc). This gap creates a liability in the job markets they saturate, as well. This culture of companies that hire SE majors and SE degree programs is pretty lax when it comes to the stuff that isn't arbitrary software framework knowledge. Frankly, the 'optimization' of CS has been a disaster. Buggy software can cause just as many damaging or long term effects as poorly designed buildings or machines, but in none of the programs that would output people capable of creating those do we see a movement supporting 'practical' knowledge over the basics. It's incredibly short-sighted, and at the very least, it means smaller CS programs.

offset1 6y ago
It all depends on the university and the curriculum. Some universities here provide only "software engineering" or "information technology" programs that are equivalent to their computer science counter part in countries like the US. Sure, you can learn topics like requirements engineering on the job (often an underrated subject if you really want to do it well), but the same thing can be said for literally any of the CS courses.. At the end of the day, the curriculum is really what matters for a person. Actually, you can even argue that "computer science" is not even a real science (similar with many other studies that have "science" in their name). Heck, I'd say software engineering is closer to actual "engineering" than computer science is to actual "science".

manfredo 6y ago

What computer science means varies from school to school. At many University I only wrote proofs for 2 of my CS classes. The rest of my classes were spent writing code.