20 ms·

This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundame

This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start. I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least noticing. Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, but black people are so rare that it always feels like a surprise. Maybe there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem in play. I recall that when I was in the military, I got so used to the racial make-up, which has a lot more representation from black people than my hometown, that it wouldn't register at all. Just another guy. When it really hit home was after I'd been back in Oregon for a few months after I left the service, when I was walking across the college campus and noticed a small group of black students walking towards me. I noticed them, and then I realized that I had just noticed them, as if they were noteworthy. That was the moment I realized how white Oregon [mostly] is. I didn't feel negativity towards them, but I felt uncomfortable that it was something that even came to mind. In any case, we have two black guys on our team. Both really nice, but very different people. One of them acts like he was raised locally in a wealthy family, he's very laid back and doesn't seem to feel out of place. The other guy is a little older, and if you didn't know better you'd think he was a little hostile. No, he's wary. He acts like he's faced judgement his entire life and he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Easy to be comfortable around the first guy, much harder around the second guy. I want to act like it's not even anything to be aware of, but that in itself seems pretty dishonest. People are different, and that's totally okay. Good in fact, since they bring their own unique perspective to the daily problems we are asked to solve.

082349872349872 6y ago
I heard an anecdote once about young parents who were mortified that their young child referred to the two Little Orphan Annie movies they had as "red Annie" and "black Annie." Judging by "image search", it is possible the child had been innocently referring to hair colour, and the mortification was due to what "even came to mind" for the parents.
joshribakoff 6y ago
> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases will never go away, we all have negative thoughts pop into our head, you cannot "ignore race", but we can all take steps to improve things.
- octaveguin 6y ago
  Isn't that horribly patronizing? I'd feel offended if someone treated me with kid gloves based on my skin color.
  - komali2 6y ago
    Try asking some POC friends or colleagues! Get their perspective. Another user mentioned that it feels like kneeling on the ground and using "baby talk." That's not what's being said here. It's simply taking a moment to observe yourself and other colleagues potentially engaging in unconscious (or even conscious - you may have an avowed racist hiding it very well on the team!) bias. This is being an ally. It's not patronizing. The reality is that systemic racism against POC in America is real. Ignoring that only aids the status quo.
    - numpad0 6y ago
      > POC It’s not like “white” people aren’t colored
      - komali2 6y ago
        POC means people of color means non white. You taking the anthropologic perspective isn't scientifically incorrect - race doesn't actually exist, after all, in any meaningful way. However it is sociologically incorrect to call white people "colored."
nus07 6y ago
Thank you . That was a very honest reply . As someone who is brown and worked for over a decade in Oregon - I used to be similar to the first guy in my 20s . I was laidback , felt in touch with the local culture and was easy to work with. All of that was great until I gained experience and did not get promotions and saw my white co-workers keep getting promoted to lead and managerial positions . This was despite me being more qualified and having excellent performance reviews. When I brought it up with my manager and I was shortly laid off. Now I am more like your second guy - I am older and a little wary. I know I am being judged especially if management and coworkers are overwhelmingly white - which is very common in Oregon . I am more careful , wary and precise about how I am at work - which makes others and someone like you less comfortable. It’s anecdotal but this is where the rest of us come from .
- bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
  This is useful to see, thanks for sharing. It mirrors my own experience. I came into this profession with a lot of energy, enthusiasm, and an open heart. Then I had a couple of experiences that triggered "The Great Noticing" in me. I haven't really been the same since, though I've tried to keep an open heart/mind and lean against the wariness that's come with experience. But mostly I try to stay away from SF, the PNW, and their geographically dispersed cultural outposts.
  - neonate 6y ago
    What is "The Great Noticing"?
  - datavirtue 6y ago
    Everyone comes into the industry bubbly. The corporate grinder doesn't care what your skin color is. Most of the older people I have known are traumatized and very guarded through years of getting jerked around by office politics. Witnessing the toxic shit that happens in groups of white people of similar background I have always wondered what utopia people expected out of being "treated equal." Meritocracies and healthy teams are very rare.
networkimprov 6y ago
Re "borderline racism", I think xenophobia is the term you're looking for.
cowmoo728 6y ago
It's also unclear that private companies are capable of solving this. I'm not sure when we collectively decided that FAANG companies and private universities should take on a problem that was created by government policy. Government broke it, and government should fix it. Equitable funding for primary school STEM programs and subsidized childcare could be a good start. I get the sense that so many Americans have given up on government to the point that we would rather ask Twitter and Harvard to fix social issues.
- jschwartzi 6y ago
  It's a systemic problem, meaning that there isn't one specific cause. Government policy created the conditions, individuals perpetuate them, and the companies in question have the candidate pool that they have because of where they hire from and the expressed preferences of their individual workers. Because it is a systemic problem, there isn't a side of right and a side of wrong except for the few true malicious actors. And because it is a systemic problem we are all of us responsible for addressing it. We can't fob it off on the government or on private enterprise or on specific individuals. We must each individually make different choices if we want to change things.
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    Agreed. There seems to be this sort of broad recognition of past racial injustice among many very smart people. Yet they seem to have decided that at some point, the populace that created that racial injustice just stopped being racist. I am of the opinion that past racial injustice is the larger factor in today's racial inequality. But that doesn't mean that current racial bias isn't responsible for a significant portion. We have to fight this battle on all fronts, public and private.
dafoex 6y ago
For the longest time I felt like I didn't notice race: yeah, if I looked it was there, and the town I grew up in and live in is pretty multicultural, so it wasn't a novel thing to see people of different colours. Sadly, as I've become more aware of the bitter division of race present in some people, I feel that I've not only become acutely aware of the races around me as if its something strange and unexpected, but I actually feel like I've become somewhat more prejudiced because of it. As a real life example from the pandemic, everyone is "social distancing" or whatever your local term is. So, went out shopping, needed to get something off a shelf that someone was stood by, asked them to move and they barely scoot back at all. If this was a white guy I'd say "its two metres, not two inches, please move back more" but because this guy was a different shade of brown to me my mind goes "I can't challenge that person because if I do they'll erupt in a cloud of 'that's racist' and I don't want to make a scene" so I just have to bend around them to get the thing off of the shelf and put us both at risk of catching an indiscriminate virus off of each other all because I'm going against everything I thought was right and treating another person differently because of the colour of their skin. It feels bad because as someone that wants to treat everyone nicely, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells so as to not accidentally oppress someone. Why can't I just ask someone to observe social distancing and it not be a racist thing? Am I going crazy or does anyone else feel this way? Am I alone in this feeling? Am I becoming racist purely because I try so damn hard to not be racist?
- lilactown 6y ago
  You're just dealing with a social problem that you haven't as much experience with. As you grow to better understand the interpersonal dynamics between you and other people w.r.t. race it'll be the same as learning how best to communicate with old, or disabled, or femme, or masculine people without offending them. It's not hard, just new. You're not crazy, just inexperienced. All we should do is keep trying to get better at it.
- komali2 6y ago
  The social discomfort is par for the course for American POC. Did that white lady cross the street cause she's afraid of me, or my dog? All day, every day. Now you and I get to experience some of this discomfort and through our experience we can work to make the world a bit better and more equitable. Specifically for your social distancing example, I've found it's far too confrontational to ask people to step away from me. In lines, if someone is up my asshole, I simply offer them to go in front of me, then give 6ft of space. Or in a grocery store, I walk away and come back to get what I need later.

082349872349872 6y ago

I heard an anecdote once about young parents who were mortified that their young child referred to the two Little Orphan Annie movies they had as "red Annie" and "black Annie." Judging by "image search", it is possible the child had been innocently referring to hair colour, and the mortification was due to what "even came to mind" for the parents.

joshribakoff 6y ago

> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases will never go away, we all have negative thoughts pop into our head, you cannot "ignore race", but we can all take steps to improve things.

octaveguin 6y ago
Isn't that horribly patronizing? I'd feel offended if someone treated me with kid gloves based on my skin color.
- komali2 6y ago
  Try asking some POC friends or colleagues! Get their perspective. Another user mentioned that it feels like kneeling on the ground and using "baby talk." That's not what's being said here. It's simply taking a moment to observe yourself and other colleagues potentially engaging in unconscious (or even conscious - you may have an avowed racist hiding it very well on the team!) bias. This is being an ally. It's not patronizing. The reality is that systemic racism against POC in America is real. Ignoring that only aids the status quo.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    > POC It’s not like “white” people aren’t colored
    - komali2 6y ago
      POC means people of color means non white. You taking the anthropologic perspective isn't scientifically incorrect - race doesn't actually exist, after all, in any meaningful way. However it is sociologically incorrect to call white people "colored."

nus07 6y ago

Thank you . That was a very honest reply . As someone who is brown and worked for over a decade in Oregon - I used to be similar to the first guy in my 20s . I was laidback , felt in touch with the local culture and was easy to work with. All of that was great until I gained experience and did not get promotions and saw my white co-workers keep getting promoted to lead and managerial positions . This was despite me being more qualified and having excellent performance reviews. When I brought it up with my manager and I was shortly laid off. Now I am more like your second guy - I am older and a little wary. I know I am being judged especially if management and coworkers are overwhelmingly white - which is very common in Oregon . I am more careful , wary and precise about how I am at work - which makes others and someone like you less comfortable. It’s anecdotal but this is where the rest of us come from .

bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
This is useful to see, thanks for sharing. It mirrors my own experience. I came into this profession with a lot of energy, enthusiasm, and an open heart. Then I had a couple of experiences that triggered "The Great Noticing" in me. I haven't really been the same since, though I've tried to keep an open heart/mind and lean against the wariness that's come with experience. But mostly I try to stay away from SF, the PNW, and their geographically dispersed cultural outposts.
- neonate 6y ago
  What is "The Great Noticing"?
- datavirtue 6y ago
  Everyone comes into the industry bubbly. The corporate grinder doesn't care what your skin color is. Most of the older people I have known are traumatized and very guarded through years of getting jerked around by office politics. Witnessing the toxic shit that happens in groups of white people of similar background I have always wondered what utopia people expected out of being "treated equal." Meritocracies and healthy teams are very rare.

networkimprov 6y ago

Re "borderline racism", I think xenophobia is the term you're looking for.

cowmoo728 6y ago

It's also unclear that private companies are capable of solving this. I'm not sure when we collectively decided that FAANG companies and private universities should take on a problem that was created by government policy. Government broke it, and government should fix it. Equitable funding for primary school STEM programs and subsidized childcare could be a good start. I get the sense that so many Americans have given up on government to the point that we would rather ask Twitter and Harvard to fix social issues.

jschwartzi 6y ago
It's a systemic problem, meaning that there isn't one specific cause. Government policy created the conditions, individuals perpetuate them, and the companies in question have the candidate pool that they have because of where they hire from and the expressed preferences of their individual workers. Because it is a systemic problem, there isn't a side of right and a side of wrong except for the few true malicious actors. And because it is a systemic problem we are all of us responsible for addressing it. We can't fob it off on the government or on private enterprise or on specific individuals. We must each individually make different choices if we want to change things.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Agreed. There seems to be this sort of broad recognition of past racial injustice among many very smart people. Yet they seem to have decided that at some point, the populace that created that racial injustice just stopped being racist. I am of the opinion that past racial injustice is the larger factor in today's racial inequality. But that doesn't mean that current racial bias isn't responsible for a significant portion. We have to fight this battle on all fronts, public and private.

dafoex 6y ago

For the longest time I felt like I didn't notice race: yeah, if I looked it was there, and the town I grew up in and live in is pretty multicultural, so it wasn't a novel thing to see people of different colours. Sadly, as I've become more aware of the bitter division of race present in some people, I feel that I've not only become acutely aware of the races around me as if its something strange and unexpected, but I actually feel like I've become somewhat more prejudiced because of it. As a real life example from the pandemic, everyone is "social distancing" or whatever your local term is. So, went out shopping, needed to get something off a shelf that someone was stood by, asked them to move and they barely scoot back at all. If this was a white guy I'd say "its two metres, not two inches, please move back more" but because this guy was a different shade of brown to me my mind goes "I can't challenge that person because if I do they'll erupt in a cloud of 'that's racist' and I don't want to make a scene" so I just have to bend around them to get the thing off of the shelf and put us both at risk of catching an indiscriminate virus off of each other all because I'm going against everything I thought was right and treating another person differently because of the colour of their skin. It feels bad because as someone that wants to treat everyone nicely, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells so as to not accidentally oppress someone. Why can't I just ask someone to observe social distancing and it not be a racist thing? Am I going crazy or does anyone else feel this way? Am I alone in this feeling? Am I becoming racist purely because I try so damn hard to not be racist?

lilactown 6y ago
You're just dealing with a social problem that you haven't as much experience with. As you grow to better understand the interpersonal dynamics between you and other people w.r.t. race it'll be the same as learning how best to communicate with old, or disabled, or femme, or masculine people without offending them. It's not hard, just new. You're not crazy, just inexperienced. All we should do is keep trying to get better at it.
komali2 6y ago
The social discomfort is par for the course for American POC. Did that white lady cross the street cause she's afraid of me, or my dog? All day, every day. Now you and I get to experience some of this discomfort and through our experience we can work to make the world a bit better and more equitable. Specifically for your social distancing example, I've found it's far too confrontational to ask people to step away from me. In lines, if someone is up my asshole, I simply offer them to go in front of me, then give 6ft of space. Or in a grocery store, I walk away and come back to get what I need later.