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The only solution seems to be equally organized mobs outraged at cancel culture. I think we will get there.

by encoderer 6y ago

sixothree 6y ago
Is this sarcasm? That defines a pretty large part of America already.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
randallsquared 6y ago
How would that work? A social norm against cancel culture might be a solution (though it's not clear how we would get there from here), but "organized mobs outraged at cancel culture"? I don't really understand what the intended effects would be -- canceling the cancellers? That doesn't seem like it would be against cancel culture, but only picking new criteria for cancellation.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  The cancellers can be cancelled; this very article is an example. Show the public the chain of events that occurred, show the victims, and show the identities of the cancellers and the mean-spiritedness and illogic involved. And show, like Obama did[0], that cancel-culture progressivism is not what the the American left stands for. We can (we must!) turn the left against cancel culture if the left is to regain the moral high ground and the trust of the voters. And, ironically, we'll make more progress that way on the issues that progressives care about than by using their methods. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50239261 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50239261
elicash 6y ago
The only solution is labor unions. You need a CONTRACT that determines what happens when a company wants to discipline or fire an employee. So firing is still possible, but it's a process that's negotiated and agreed to beforehand by two sides and generally not the first step (minus certain circumstances). The truth is, people are fired for arbitrary and unfair reasons constantly. I'd imagine 1 out of a million times someone is fired for unfair reasons it has something to do with cancel culture.
- cyb_ 6y ago
  As a counter example, police unions seem to have played a large role in creating/perpetuating the problems so many have been protesting lately.
  - FabHK 6y ago
    Police unions are very different from ordinary labour unions. So, that is not a counter point, really. (You could argue that I'm engaging in a "True Scotchman", but see this article [1]: > Police unions make it nearly impossible to fire bad cops and incentivize protecting them to protect the power of the union. A police union is not a labor union; police officers are powerful state agents, not exploited workers. ) [1] https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard...
    - hirundo 6y ago
      > Police unions make it nearly impossible to fire bad cops and incentivize protecting them to protect the power of the union. Like teacher's unions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        Really like public sector unions in general. When the other side of the bargaining table isn't capital but the representatives of the people, and those representatives are often beholden to the unions to get elected, the union isn't representing the workers against capital, it's representing the bureaucracy against the citizens and capturing the people's representatives to do it.
  - elicash 6y ago
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ajps.12537 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ajps.12537
- blub 6y ago
indigochill 6y ago
I don't know about mobs, but I do know I'd never tie my livelihood (whether working for or taking contracts) with a company that I knew knee-jerked into reactionary SJW action based on context-free social media hearsay, because who wants that hanging over their head 24/7? That doesn't even really need a mob. People can individually decide to work for these groups or not and reap what they sow. That's a little distinct from cancel culture overall, though, since there's still the question of boycotting people/organizations who demonstrably have done unethical things or hold unethical views. I tend to compartmentalize the work from the person more than some, but I don't begrudge people wanting to distance themselves from that - only when they do so without evidence of actual wrongdoing.
LyndsySimon 6y ago
I’m seeing rumblings of this in some circles. They were not talking about “doxxing” in retaliation, though - they were talking about literally hunting them down. I’m not old enough to have experienced when this sort of thing happened historically, but it certainly feels like we’re inexorably marching toward a violent breakdown of our society. It’s scary.
IshKebab 6y ago
In two of these cases the obvious solution is labour laws. In Europe you can't get fired just because your employer wants to fire you. They have to have a legitimate reason. Maybe one day America will get there.
klyrs 6y ago
They tried that in Charlottesville. Murdered an SJW and everything.
skinkestek 6y ago
Two important things: - It is not the only solution and I definitely don't want anyone to go there. - ... but the way things are happening right now it seems like a very possible that it might happen. This is sad: I see so much hate even here. Why can't 2nd amendment people realize that banning E2E encryption is just another way to make ordinary people powerless? And why can't we see that there are legitimate reasons why the second amendment is there? Why do we people here have to brag about how much they hate their relatives? It is sickening! We surely don't have to agree with our parents, siblings and other relatives in everything, and I certainly dont agree with HN in everything either but finding common ground seems important to me.

The only solution seems to be equally organized mobs outraged at cancel culture. I think we will get there.

sixothree 6y ago

Is this sarcasm? That defines a pretty large part of America already.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

randallsquared 6y ago

How would that work? A social norm against cancel culture might be a solution (though it's not clear how we would get there from here), but "organized mobs outraged at cancel culture"? I don't really understand what the intended effects would be -- canceling the cancellers? That doesn't seem like it would be against cancel culture, but only picking new criteria for cancellation.

ThrowawayR2 6y ago
The cancellers can be cancelled; this very article is an example. Show the public the chain of events that occurred, show the victims, and show the identities of the cancellers and the mean-spiritedness and illogic involved. And show, like Obama did[0], that cancel-culture progressivism is not what the the American left stands for. We can (we must!) turn the left against cancel culture if the left is to regain the moral high ground and the trust of the voters. And, ironically, we'll make more progress that way on the issues that progressives care about than by using their methods. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50239261 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50239261

elicash 6y ago

The only solution is labor unions. You need a CONTRACT that determines what happens when a company wants to discipline or fire an employee. So firing is still possible, but it's a process that's negotiated and agreed to beforehand by two sides and generally not the first step (minus certain circumstances). The truth is, people are fired for arbitrary and unfair reasons constantly. I'd imagine 1 out of a million times someone is fired for unfair reasons it has something to do with cancel culture.

cyb_ 6y ago
As a counter example, police unions seem to have played a large role in creating/perpetuating the problems so many have been protesting lately.
- FabHK 6y ago
  Police unions are very different from ordinary labour unions. So, that is not a counter point, really. (You could argue that I'm engaging in a "True Scotchman", but see this article [1]: > Police unions make it nearly impossible to fire bad cops and incentivize protecting them to protect the power of the union. A police union is not a labor union; police officers are powerful state agents, not exploited workers. ) [1] https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard...
  - hirundo 6y ago
    > Police unions make it nearly impossible to fire bad cops and incentivize protecting them to protect the power of the union. Like teacher's unions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      Really like public sector unions in general. When the other side of the bargaining table isn't capital but the representatives of the people, and those representatives are often beholden to the unions to get elected, the union isn't representing the workers against capital, it's representing the bureaucracy against the citizens and capturing the people's representatives to do it.
- elicash 6y ago
  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ajps.12537 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ajps.12537
blub 6y ago

indigochill 6y ago

I don't know about mobs, but I do know I'd never tie my livelihood (whether working for or taking contracts) with a company that I knew knee-jerked into reactionary SJW action based on context-free social media hearsay, because who wants that hanging over their head 24/7? That doesn't even really need a mob. People can individually decide to work for these groups or not and reap what they sow. That's a little distinct from cancel culture overall, though, since there's still the question of boycotting people/organizations who demonstrably have done unethical things or hold unethical views. I tend to compartmentalize the work from the person more than some, but I don't begrudge people wanting to distance themselves from that - only when they do so without evidence of actual wrongdoing.

LyndsySimon 6y ago

I’m seeing rumblings of this in some circles. They were not talking about “doxxing” in retaliation, though - they were talking about literally hunting them down. I’m not old enough to have experienced when this sort of thing happened historically, but it certainly feels like we’re inexorably marching toward a violent breakdown of our society. It’s scary.

IshKebab 6y ago

In two of these cases the obvious solution is labour laws. In Europe you can't get fired just because your employer wants to fire you. They have to have a legitimate reason. Maybe one day America will get there.

klyrs 6y ago

They tried that in Charlottesville. Murdered an SJW and everything.

skinkestek 6y ago

Two important things: - It is not the only solution and I definitely don't want anyone to go there. - ... but the way things are happening right now it seems like a very possible that it might happen. This is sad: I see so much hate even here. Why can't 2nd amendment people realize that banning E2E encryption is just another way to make ordinary people powerless? And why can't we see that there are legitimate reasons why the second amendment is there? Why do we people here have to brag about how much they hate their relatives? It is sickening! We surely don't have to agree with our parents, siblings and other relatives in everything, and I certainly dont agree with HN in everything either but finding common ground seems important to me.