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> But as satellite technology improves, researchers are starting to stress test the data - and the early results show leaky oil and gas industry infrastructure

> But as satellite technology improves, researchers are starting to stress test the data - and the early results show leaky oil and gas industry infrastructure is responsible for far more of the methane in the atmosphere than previously thought. This is such a common refrain in climate related news it's depressing. Everything is always worse than previously thought.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
I can see why it is cause for alarm, and subsequently depression, but having been involved in the Environmentalist movement for nearly 15 years now its really about how this is addressed. Looking at this in just a pragmatic perspective, the damage done is irreversible, what isn't is how we assess this moving forward. If you had leaks in your pipes its best to know before it causes rot or mold to your home, but not knowing it until it all happened at once isn't any better, either. We have a choice on how we address this, and to be honest we should build our Global Economies on that, especially since its so dire, but also because we've exceeded the benefit of perpetual and endless growth of consumer driven business models. We have a large segment of people who will no longer have jobs moving forward all over the World and if we use this as an opportunity and see we have the Human Capital as well as the Financial incentive to try and create sustainable models to ensure we try and slow down and ultimately reverse this. The truth is we have ways to recapture greenhouse gasses and have proven models to utilize waste products from manufacturing processes [1], its just that in our pursuit to makes things as cheaply as possible the externalties to get there were always hidden in order to be able to compete in the Market. It has always shocked me how an endless amount of money exists to prop up a broken financial system (specifically banks and fiat currencies) that eventually lead to environmental destruction, at least now we have an ability to usher in a new value system and paradigm that re-connects us with our Environment and our Communities, something that I think has led to wide spread depression as we've seen with this COVID lockdown/social distancing. 1: https://www.thermaltech.com/codeless_portfolio/biogas-reclamation/ https://www.thermaltech.com/codeless_portfolio/biogas-reclam...
- perfunctory 6y ago
  > now its really about how this is addressed > at least now we have an ability to usher in a new value system I am not sure I follow the point you are trying to make. What is this newly found ability you are talking about? What is so special about now and how we address it? What has changed in the last 15 years? I don't see any progress at all. Emissions just keep rising year after year.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    Methane leaks are a byproduct of short sighted designs, and not having the incentives to ensure it doesn't occur, here is another example: in Bitcoin, Mining is seen as a horrible environmental disaster and why POW systems are impractical by those who do not understand the issue its trying to address. This is negating many things, not least of which that most of the network is not just utilizing renewable energy, but its spurring on its growth into areas outside of what exists (see: Peter Thiel's Bitcoin farm running off of Wind in Texas), but the heat generated from the process is thought to be a waste byproduct any many miners prefer to go to Iceland where Geo-thermal can be utilized as well as the cold weather to cool down the miners. While this is good enough for some, this can be further improved to create other ancillary goods/services, too. Check this Bitcoin farm that sought to utilize the 'wasted byproduct' [1] and there are others who did something similar to try and offset the obvious massive use of energy (they create starter plants without a greenhouse etc...). This level of recapturing 'waste' solutions should be mandated, and not optional for all Fossil Fuel based energy. This will at least ensure we stop needlessly over producing the stuff, as we've seen with OPEC trying to do to keep the price of oil from crashing its clear we don't need that much if we introduce WFH solutions permanently to as much as we can, and force the Market to find what is and isn't deemed vital to keep operational using Fossil Fuel while we transition to more renewable based EV models. > What has changed in the last 15 years? A lot, Hemp went from being a schedule 1 drug to a 50 state legal crop something that most homes should utilize as it not only is an amazing insulator, which reduces the need for Heating/AC, but also sequestrates carbon as it cures and when its grown. I also saw the advent of EV re-emerge stronger than ever and has become a now fashion statement and status symbol where it was seen as fringe and impractical. I've spent most of my time in having been involved in the Organic and sustainable movement we've seen a significant amount of people shift towards choosing to eat that way and the idea of farm to table is now catching up with the environmental European standards after the exposure from foodies and shows like Chef's Table and Anthony Bourdain's. This has also led to business models that rely entirely on re-capturing food loss and reselling them as value added products--my former co-worker was also a farmer and got sent to hang out with Dan Barber in NY and he now has an ice cream and sorbet business that uses fruit/food from vendors that are not being utilized at a significant discount. > I don't see any progress at all. Emissions just keep rising year after year. Then you're not paying attention to the progress and are succumbing to the pessimism you've built around the issue; I grew up in SoCal where airplanes had trouble landing because of the amount of smog. In less than a decade of enacting the clean air mandate that went entirely away, it wasn't perfect because of population density, but then when COVID lockdowns were issued it happened again and we saw just quickly things turn around. What I'm saying is that things are not all doomed, and we live in a remarkable period in Human History where we can collectively actually solve meaningful problems if the will exists. I'm personally a big proponent of colonizing Mars, mainly because it was in my mind the most effective challenge that could alter Human consciousness to try and see how inhospitable this Universe really is to Life and that we should take care of the Earth. It could also lessen the burden we have on extracting and expending this planet's resources. Honestly, I think you should try and reach out to your community and volunteer in a community garden to see how you can transform that anxiety and depression you feel (that I often felt, too) into meaningful change you want see in the World. I see these things as improvements because some of us paid for this to occur with physical/emotional pain, blood, sweat and tears and we've grown from the experience. And to be honest, I think this is a vital part of the Human condition that most lack these days because Life has become some insulating that it gives you one the illusion that they can do an otherwise feckless thing in Society and think they have it all figured out and succumb to depression and anxiety--I felt this way in my early 20s. When the truth is if most of those people were suddenly placed in a rural area without the comforts that Civilization affords us they'd probably be the first die of thirst or starvation. 1: https://bitcoinist.com/canadas-sustainable-bitcoin-mining-used-to-farm-fish-and-crops/ https://bitcoinist.com/canadas-sustainable-bitcoin-mining-us...
caiobegotti 6y ago
It's not only in climated related news but I understand the feeling. This is how science works: we know a bit about something, we improve data collection, we reasses the problem... in an infinite loop. If the new data shows the reality is worse, then it is worse. On the other hand, consider the famous comparison of photos taken of Pluto over the years: things got clearer, with more resolution, so we can rationalize with a better understanding of it... than previously thought.
hpoe 6y ago
Saw a similar article about the same thing on hn a few weeks ago. It pointed out this is actually a good thing. This was leaking before and being factored in to calculations but now we know where it is coming from and it turns out it isn't going to require insande lifestyle changes or crazy new tax schemes to cap this portion of methane emissions instead we can just retrofit the gas and oil infrastructure, which is a lot less radical than other things we might have to do. Of course nothing the west does will make much of a difference as long as China keeps escalating it's emissions.
- caiobegotti 6y ago
  "Who's responsible for climate change? Who needs to fix it?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipVxxxqwBQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipVxxxqwBQw
- perfunctory 6y ago
  > we can just retrofit the gas and oil infrastructure I have an issue with the word just. Just watch how gas industry jumps to the opportunity to increase their costs.
ajross 6y ago
In some sense this is good news, though. Obviously, if we know where the leaks are we can plug them. But going farther, knowing what is leaking makes it easier to put an accurate "cost" on technologies. Gas leaks make gas power more climate-expensive, and make it easier to argue for renewables at the policy level (one of the reasons LNG transport is getting easy permits and funding is that it's perceived as lower impact).
- WhompingWindows 6y ago
  Exactly! Knowledge is "power" here...knowing the real climate cost of natural gas allows wind/solar to compete vs a realistic (vs imagined) baseline.
  - ip26 6y ago
    Or at least demand that if natural gas wants to pitch itself as a lower greenhouse gas alternative to coal, it better fix up the leaks.
WhompingWindows 6y ago
Not EVERYTHING is worse - don't despair! --EVs are doing well due to COVID -- Europe is moving towards them in a big way. --Electric trucks are starting to come out, 2021 will be big! --Wind/solar are still ramping very fast globally --Coal is being hurt disproportionately by COVID, because it's more expensive and power demand is down, utilities are utilizing even LESS coal than they would have in business as usual 2020. So, there are SOME reasons to be positive...yay?
- perfunctory 6y ago
  all this has been happening for quite a while now and yet emissions keep rising every freaking year. You tell me why. > EVs are doing well due to COVID due to COVID - wat?
  - WhompingWindows 6y ago
    Green stimulus plans, plus the added knowledge of smog and pollution having been reduced, has been a boost to EVs. Tesla is reportedly on the way to a record quarter of deliveries, they'll have a stock value above 1000, meanwhile we have countries left and right doubling down on EVs (europe especially).
    - shrimp_emoji 6y ago
      Capitalism is slaved to thermodynamics too hard. We wanna be green? Biomass energy is green. Cut down all the forests and burn them for power! (What? We're not burning coal. This is renewable.) Meanwhile, the actual, durable alternative (nuclear) is off the table because it's too scary and expensive. Also, all those batteries and solar panels are a continuous (fossil fuel consuming) production burden. But I guess that never stood in the way of profit before. Ironically, the most profitable model would be if there was just stuff you could dig out of the ground and use right away that was extremely energy-rich.
    - anoncareer0212 6y ago
      There is exactly one report of Tesla working towards a record quarter of deliveries, from an outlet biased against Tesla that Musk won't engage with anymore. Tesla told analysts on Tuesday they're 30% short of that, see Ross Gerber's twitter.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

I can see why it is cause for alarm, and subsequently depression, but having been involved in the Environmentalist movement for nearly 15 years now its really about how this is addressed. Looking at this in just a pragmatic perspective, the damage done is irreversible, what isn't is how we assess this moving forward. If you had leaks in your pipes its best to know before it causes rot or mold to your home, but not knowing it until it all happened at once isn't any better, either. We have a choice on how we address this, and to be honest we should build our Global Economies on that, especially since its so dire, but also because we've exceeded the benefit of perpetual and endless growth of consumer driven business models. We have a large segment of people who will no longer have jobs moving forward all over the World and if we use this as an opportunity and see we have the Human Capital as well as the Financial incentive to try and create sustainable models to ensure we try and slow down and ultimately reverse this. The truth is we have ways to recapture greenhouse gasses and have proven models to utilize waste products from manufacturing processes [1], its just that in our pursuit to makes things as cheaply as possible the externalties to get there were always hidden in order to be able to compete in the Market. It has always shocked me how an endless amount of money exists to prop up a broken financial system (specifically banks and fiat currencies) that eventually lead to environmental destruction, at least now we have an ability to usher in a new value system and paradigm that re-connects us with our Environment and our Communities, something that I think has led to wide spread depression as we've seen with this COVID lockdown/social distancing. 1: https://www.thermaltech.com/codeless_portfolio/biogas-reclamation/ https://www.thermaltech.com/codeless_portfolio/biogas-reclam...

perfunctory 6y ago
> now its really about how this is addressed > at least now we have an ability to usher in a new value system I am not sure I follow the point you are trying to make. What is this newly found ability you are talking about? What is so special about now and how we address it? What has changed in the last 15 years? I don't see any progress at all. Emissions just keep rising year after year.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  Methane leaks are a byproduct of short sighted designs, and not having the incentives to ensure it doesn't occur, here is another example: in Bitcoin, Mining is seen as a horrible environmental disaster and why POW systems are impractical by those who do not understand the issue its trying to address. This is negating many things, not least of which that most of the network is not just utilizing renewable energy, but its spurring on its growth into areas outside of what exists (see: Peter Thiel's Bitcoin farm running off of Wind in Texas), but the heat generated from the process is thought to be a waste byproduct any many miners prefer to go to Iceland where Geo-thermal can be utilized as well as the cold weather to cool down the miners. While this is good enough for some, this can be further improved to create other ancillary goods/services, too. Check this Bitcoin farm that sought to utilize the 'wasted byproduct' [1] and there are others who did something similar to try and offset the obvious massive use of energy (they create starter plants without a greenhouse etc...). This level of recapturing 'waste' solutions should be mandated, and not optional for all Fossil Fuel based energy. This will at least ensure we stop needlessly over producing the stuff, as we've seen with OPEC trying to do to keep the price of oil from crashing its clear we don't need that much if we introduce WFH solutions permanently to as much as we can, and force the Market to find what is and isn't deemed vital to keep operational using Fossil Fuel while we transition to more renewable based EV models. > What has changed in the last 15 years? A lot, Hemp went from being a schedule 1 drug to a 50 state legal crop something that most homes should utilize as it not only is an amazing insulator, which reduces the need for Heating/AC, but also sequestrates carbon as it cures and when its grown. I also saw the advent of EV re-emerge stronger than ever and has become a now fashion statement and status symbol where it was seen as fringe and impractical. I've spent most of my time in having been involved in the Organic and sustainable movement we've seen a significant amount of people shift towards choosing to eat that way and the idea of farm to table is now catching up with the environmental European standards after the exposure from foodies and shows like Chef's Table and Anthony Bourdain's. This has also led to business models that rely entirely on re-capturing food loss and reselling them as value added products--my former co-worker was also a farmer and got sent to hang out with Dan Barber in NY and he now has an ice cream and sorbet business that uses fruit/food from vendors that are not being utilized at a significant discount. > I don't see any progress at all. Emissions just keep rising year after year. Then you're not paying attention to the progress and are succumbing to the pessimism you've built around the issue; I grew up in SoCal where airplanes had trouble landing because of the amount of smog. In less than a decade of enacting the clean air mandate that went entirely away, it wasn't perfect because of population density, but then when COVID lockdowns were issued it happened again and we saw just quickly things turn around. What I'm saying is that things are not all doomed, and we live in a remarkable period in Human History where we can collectively actually solve meaningful problems if the will exists. I'm personally a big proponent of colonizing Mars, mainly because it was in my mind the most effective challenge that could alter Human consciousness to try and see how inhospitable this Universe really is to Life and that we should take care of the Earth. It could also lessen the burden we have on extracting and expending this planet's resources. Honestly, I think you should try and reach out to your community and volunteer in a community garden to see how you can transform that anxiety and depression you feel (that I often felt, too) into meaningful change you want see in the World. I see these things as improvements because some of us paid for this to occur with physical/emotional pain, blood, sweat and tears and we've grown from the experience. And to be honest, I think this is a vital part of the Human condition that most lack these days because Life has become some insulating that it gives you one the illusion that they can do an otherwise feckless thing in Society and think they have it all figured out and succumb to depression and anxiety--I felt this way in my early 20s. When the truth is if most of those people were suddenly placed in a rural area without the comforts that Civilization affords us they'd probably be the first die of thirst or starvation. 1: https://bitcoinist.com/canadas-sustainable-bitcoin-mining-used-to-farm-fish-and-crops/ https://bitcoinist.com/canadas-sustainable-bitcoin-mining-us...

caiobegotti 6y ago

It's not only in climated related news but I understand the feeling. This is how science works: we know a bit about something, we improve data collection, we reasses the problem... in an infinite loop. If the new data shows the reality is worse, then it is worse. On the other hand, consider the famous comparison of photos taken of Pluto over the years: things got clearer, with more resolution, so we can rationalize with a better understanding of it... than previously thought.

hpoe 6y ago

Saw a similar article about the same thing on hn a few weeks ago. It pointed out this is actually a good thing. This was leaking before and being factored in to calculations but now we know where it is coming from and it turns out it isn't going to require insande lifestyle changes or crazy new tax schemes to cap this portion of methane emissions instead we can just retrofit the gas and oil infrastructure, which is a lot less radical than other things we might have to do. Of course nothing the west does will make much of a difference as long as China keeps escalating it's emissions.

caiobegotti 6y ago
"Who's responsible for climate change? Who needs to fix it?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipVxxxqwBQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipVxxxqwBQw
perfunctory 6y ago
> we can just retrofit the gas and oil infrastructure I have an issue with the word just. Just watch how gas industry jumps to the opportunity to increase their costs.

ajross 6y ago

In some sense this is good news, though. Obviously, if we know where the leaks are we can plug them. But going farther, knowing what is leaking makes it easier to put an accurate "cost" on technologies. Gas leaks make gas power more climate-expensive, and make it easier to argue for renewables at the policy level (one of the reasons LNG transport is getting easy permits and funding is that it's perceived as lower impact).

WhompingWindows 6y ago
Exactly! Knowledge is "power" here...knowing the real climate cost of natural gas allows wind/solar to compete vs a realistic (vs imagined) baseline.
- ip26 6y ago
  Or at least demand that if natural gas wants to pitch itself as a lower greenhouse gas alternative to coal, it better fix up the leaks.

WhompingWindows 6y ago

Not EVERYTHING is worse - don't despair! --EVs are doing well due to COVID -- Europe is moving towards them in a big way. --Electric trucks are starting to come out, 2021 will be big! --Wind/solar are still ramping very fast globally --Coal is being hurt disproportionately by COVID, because it's more expensive and power demand is down, utilities are utilizing even LESS coal than they would have in business as usual 2020. So, there are SOME reasons to be positive...yay?

perfunctory 6y ago
all this has been happening for quite a while now and yet emissions keep rising every freaking year. You tell me why. > EVs are doing well due to COVID due to COVID - wat?
- WhompingWindows 6y ago
  Green stimulus plans, plus the added knowledge of smog and pollution having been reduced, has been a boost to EVs. Tesla is reportedly on the way to a record quarter of deliveries, they'll have a stock value above 1000, meanwhile we have countries left and right doubling down on EVs (europe especially).
  - shrimp_emoji 6y ago
    Capitalism is slaved to thermodynamics too hard. We wanna be green? Biomass energy is green. Cut down all the forests and burn them for power! (What? We're not burning coal. This is renewable.) Meanwhile, the actual, durable alternative (nuclear) is off the table because it's too scary and expensive. Also, all those batteries and solar panels are a continuous (fossil fuel consuming) production burden. But I guess that never stood in the way of profit before. Ironically, the most profitable model would be if there was just stuff you could dig out of the ground and use right away that was extremely energy-rich.
  - anoncareer0212 6y ago
    There is exactly one report of Tesla working towards a record quarter of deliveries, from an outlet biased against Tesla that Musk won't engage with anymore. Tesla told analysts on Tuesday they're 30% short of that, see Ross Gerber's twitter.