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> Beto wasn’t planning on sending social workers to do the confiscation. No, but he needn't have sent people with guns at first. The first step in enforcing a

by danans 6y ago

> Beto wasn’t planning on sending social workers to do the confiscation. No, but he needn't have sent people with guns at first. The first step in enforcing any law is just asking people to comply with it. The next step is putting fines on them. Only the last step involves the threat or at the very end, the use of force. Given the common attitudes of those who purchase and keep AR-15s, perhaps the chance of them complying with any future legal ban on assault weapons is small, but in that situation, by not complying they would be committing a criminal act. > if necessary. Yes, if necessary. A lot of issues we treat as law enforcement problems can be resolved without bringing violence into the picture, but that's only possible if the systems are set up that way that encourages non-violent intervention first. Unfortunately, our current law enforcement systems treat many situations as having a high probability of requiring violence.

luckylion 6y ago
> Only the last step involves the threat or at the very end, the use of force. The use of force is certainly the last step, but the threat of force is present at any step. If the government sends you a letter asking you to do something, they're not "asking" you like your neighbor or your friend might ask you. They are telling you to do something, and it's clear to everyone that, if you don't convince them or a court otherwise, they absolutely will use force if you don't comply. I don't mind the monopoly on violence (though I do believe that the state must enforce it much more: it can absolutely not tolerate challenges to that monopoly, and it must absolutely crush any violence against citizens), but it's not helpful to pretend that, there isn't a gun at the end of the line that gives the nicely worded letter its weight.
- danans 6y ago
  > but it's not helpful to pretend that, there isn't a gun at the end of the line that gives the nicely worded letter its weight. I also believe that the monopoly on violence is the least worst option we have for not having a society at war with itself. But it's also blindingly obvious that it is the backstop for everything, not just enforcing weapons bans, but even things as mundane as speed limits. When the sign says max speed 55mph, that's asking. When the highway patrol pulls you over to give you a ticket - that's fining you. If you don't stop and they need to run you off the road and arrest you - that's the violence stage. It's also sitting there behind every right we enjoy in free societies. Everything from property rights to civil rights are backstopped by the monopoly on violence. However, that doesn't mean we bring the visceral threat of violence into every property or civil rights dispute. Just as important as the underlying threat of the use of the monopoly on violence is the judicious and restrained use of it only in the cases where it truly is proportional to the situation it is facing. Otherwise we get situations like the murder of George Floyd for merely using a counterfeit bill for payment at a convenience store.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    > If you don't stop and they need to run you off the road and arrest you - we are at the violence stage. If you're speeding and won't even stop when police tries to pull you over, you're putting other users of the road at severe risk. From those other users' POV, you were being violent to them, and running you off the road is the lesser evil. > Everything from property rights to civil rights are backstopped by the monopoly on violence. Even that is not so clear to me. ISTM that humans have an inherent desire to defend their possession of whatever they regard as their property, as well as the social standing ("civil rights") of people they care about - including by force. So even the basic government function of managing and enforcing property rights need not involve any initiation of violence, compared to the possibly-chaotic and unregulated violence that was already inherent in the basic notion of property, or civil standing/honor, or whatever.
    - danans 6y ago
      > running you off the road is the lesser evil. I think we're in agreement here: the use of violence must be proportional to the actual threat, so running you off the road is justified here. If we're not agreeing, then please explain what I'm missing.
      - secabeen 6y ago
        You two are in agreement, but have different levels of trust in the government. One of you feels that the government will use proportional levels of violence to reduce the number of firearms in this country, and the other thinks the government won't. One of you is envisioning an Australian gun buyback, and the other is thinking Waco/Ruby Ridge.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > When the sign says max speed 55mph, that's asking. When the highway patrol pulls you over to give you a ticket - that's fining you. If you don't stop and they need to run you off the road and arrest you - that's the violence stage. The "asking" implied "we will give you a fine if you don't", and the fine implies "and we will come to your house and get you if you don't pay". > However, that doesn't mean we bring the visceral threat of violence into every property or civil rights dispute. Of course we do, we just do it via the state. I sue you with the knowledge that, if the court rules in my favor, the state will make you accept that ruling. There is no pacifist society, and hiding the violence under a veil will do us no good. It's useful to be aware of reality, to know how the sausage is made, because it's much too easy to decide things if you close your eyes to these facts. Similar to starting a war that will not be fought by your children, deciding on a policy that will "ask" people to do something, adding "it's not like we're going to kick their door in..." is a problem: because that's exactly what is going to happen if they don't "voluntarily" comply. It's "hey, could you do me a favor? Please move your car, or else..."
- tonyhb 6y ago
  Not at all. The government could fine you for having a gun. Don't pay the fine? Maybe it's the same as an unpaid parking ticket. Or they could ask you to hand it in if you have a license. Same thing occurs. Or they could simply add a charge to your conviction if you shoot someone, because guns would be illegal. Just because they're illegal doesn't suddenly mean they'll be taken by force. That is such a huge mental jump.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > Not at all. The government could fine you for having a gun. What do you think happens when you don't pay that fine?
    - danans 6y ago
      More fines? When not paid, confiscation of financial assets, deduction from your pay, loss of access to government benefits. There's a lot of ways to encourage compliance with the law without a sworn officer pointing a gun at you.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        Right, right, and if you don't comply, what happens? This feels like "hey, that's meat, you know where that comes from, right?" - "yeah, from the fridge" - "no, I mean, before that" - "The Supermarket?"
        tonyhb 6y ago
        At some point you'd have to start understanding that not complying is the cause of your problems...
        cheald 6y ago
        You're right, but I think it actually reinforces the OP's point. How do you make the adamantly noncompliant comply? You can ask nicely, you can threaten, you can stomp your feet, and if that doesn't work...then what?
jdminhbg 6y ago
> No, but he needn't have sent people with guns at first. The first step in enforcing any law is just asking people to comply with it. The next step is putting fines on them. Only the last step involves the threat or at the very end, the use of force. None of this is any different from armed robbery. Of course the bank robbers just ask with a note first. The threat of violence is still the same, which is why there is a huge burden on the state to prove it’s necessary.

by danans 6y ago

luckylion 6y ago

> Only the last step involves the threat or at the very end, the use of force. The use of force is certainly the last step, but the threat of force is present at any step. If the government sends you a letter asking you to do something, they're not "asking" you like your neighbor or your friend might ask you. They are telling you to do something, and it's clear to everyone that, if you don't convince them or a court otherwise, they absolutely will use force if you don't comply. I don't mind the monopoly on violence (though I do believe that the state must enforce it much more: it can absolutely not tolerate challenges to that monopoly, and it must absolutely crush any violence against citizens), but it's not helpful to pretend that, there isn't a gun at the end of the line that gives the nicely worded letter its weight.

danans 6y ago
> but it's not helpful to pretend that, there isn't a gun at the end of the line that gives the nicely worded letter its weight. I also believe that the monopoly on violence is the least worst option we have for not having a society at war with itself. But it's also blindingly obvious that it is the backstop for everything, not just enforcing weapons bans, but even things as mundane as speed limits. When the sign says max speed 55mph, that's asking. When the highway patrol pulls you over to give you a ticket - that's fining you. If you don't stop and they need to run you off the road and arrest you - that's the violence stage. It's also sitting there behind every right we enjoy in free societies. Everything from property rights to civil rights are backstopped by the monopoly on violence. However, that doesn't mean we bring the visceral threat of violence into every property or civil rights dispute. Just as important as the underlying threat of the use of the monopoly on violence is the judicious and restrained use of it only in the cases where it truly is proportional to the situation it is facing. Otherwise we get situations like the murder of George Floyd for merely using a counterfeit bill for payment at a convenience store.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  > If you don't stop and they need to run you off the road and arrest you - we are at the violence stage. If you're speeding and won't even stop when police tries to pull you over, you're putting other users of the road at severe risk. From those other users' POV, you were being violent to them, and running you off the road is the lesser evil. > Everything from property rights to civil rights are backstopped by the monopoly on violence. Even that is not so clear to me. ISTM that humans have an inherent desire to defend their possession of whatever they regard as their property, as well as the social standing ("civil rights") of people they care about - including by force. So even the basic government function of managing and enforcing property rights need not involve any initiation of violence, compared to the possibly-chaotic and unregulated violence that was already inherent in the basic notion of property, or civil standing/honor, or whatever.
  - danans 6y ago
    > running you off the road is the lesser evil. I think we're in agreement here: the use of violence must be proportional to the actual threat, so running you off the road is justified here. If we're not agreeing, then please explain what I'm missing.
    - secabeen 6y ago
      You two are in agreement, but have different levels of trust in the government. One of you feels that the government will use proportional levels of violence to reduce the number of firearms in this country, and the other thinks the government won't. One of you is envisioning an Australian gun buyback, and the other is thinking Waco/Ruby Ridge.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > When the sign says max speed 55mph, that's asking. When the highway patrol pulls you over to give you a ticket - that's fining you. If you don't stop and they need to run you off the road and arrest you - that's the violence stage. The "asking" implied "we will give you a fine if you don't", and the fine implies "and we will come to your house and get you if you don't pay". > However, that doesn't mean we bring the visceral threat of violence into every property or civil rights dispute. Of course we do, we just do it via the state. I sue you with the knowledge that, if the court rules in my favor, the state will make you accept that ruling. There is no pacifist society, and hiding the violence under a veil will do us no good. It's useful to be aware of reality, to know how the sausage is made, because it's much too easy to decide things if you close your eyes to these facts. Similar to starting a war that will not be fought by your children, deciding on a policy that will "ask" people to do something, adding "it's not like we're going to kick their door in..." is a problem: because that's exactly what is going to happen if they don't "voluntarily" comply. It's "hey, could you do me a favor? Please move your car, or else..."
tonyhb 6y ago
Not at all. The government could fine you for having a gun. Don't pay the fine? Maybe it's the same as an unpaid parking ticket. Or they could ask you to hand it in if you have a license. Same thing occurs. Or they could simply add a charge to your conviction if you shoot someone, because guns would be illegal. Just because they're illegal doesn't suddenly mean they'll be taken by force. That is such a huge mental jump.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Not at all. The government could fine you for having a gun. What do you think happens when you don't pay that fine?
  - danans 6y ago
    More fines? When not paid, confiscation of financial assets, deduction from your pay, loss of access to government benefits. There's a lot of ways to encourage compliance with the law without a sworn officer pointing a gun at you.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Right, right, and if you don't comply, what happens? This feels like "hey, that's meat, you know where that comes from, right?" - "yeah, from the fridge" - "no, I mean, before that" - "The Supermarket?"
      - tonyhb 6y ago
        At some point you'd have to start understanding that not complying is the cause of your problems...
        cheald 6y ago
        You're right, but I think it actually reinforces the OP's point. How do you make the adamantly noncompliant comply? You can ask nicely, you can threaten, you can stomp your feet, and if that doesn't work...then what?

jdminhbg 6y ago

> No, but he needn't have sent people with guns at first. The first step in enforcing any law is just asking people to comply with it. The next step is putting fines on them. Only the last step involves the threat or at the very end, the use of force. None of this is any different from armed robbery. Of course the bank robbers just ask with a note first. The threat of violence is still the same, which is why there is a huge burden on the state to prove it’s necessary.