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I’m not seeing why I’d use this over sql. Can someone please enlighten me as I find this to be much more gobbledegook than sql.

by kevas 6y ago

lordofgibbons 6y ago
My first instinct was to say type safety, but you don't really get that with JS either way. Maybe it would be popular for new engineers that don't feel like learning SQL. Same reason why MongoDB got popular.
- kevas 6y ago
  My first thought when I read “feel” in your comment was, “I don’t really care what they feel; if it’s in the job spec, they learn it or get a new job.” That may be a bit harsh, but I’d rather them learn something they can use forever rather than the flavor of the week. Additionally, by learning SQL, they’d be able to apply that domain knowledge to building out queries in the flavor of the week since you know some limitations of the underlying.
- derdude 6y ago
  > My first instinct was to say type safety, but you don't really get that with JS either way. Correct, but the main experience we are supporting is TypeScript, which has a beautifully designed type system. > Maybe it would be popular for new engineers that don't feel like learning SQL. Same reason why MongoDB got popular. We have more and more senior engineers who want to use Prisma, as they just realized that writing SQL by hand is a waste of time. Let's be honest - learning SQL is still a great skill. Data analytics etc - there are great use-cases. But if you want to get stuff done and scale your team when building an _application_ - you should have a data layer. That's what Facebook, Lyft, Airbnb etc did - they have a dedicated data layer and a team working on that. Do you think an application engineer at Facebook writes SQL? No. Of course not, it would be a total waste of time to let them touch such a low level. It would not allow facebook to scale to where they are, if everyone would write direct SQL. Now the thing is, most small teams don't have the capacity to write a really performant awesome data layer with caching, deduping etc. That's where Prisma comes into play - Prisma gives the weekend producthunt warriors, but also the enterprise teams (like Tryg) a way to abstract away the database. But it's just a library you say? That's true. So in that sense, Prisma is not really a "layer", a different component in your architecture that you can horizontally scale. For that - stay tuned. The "client" part can already easily be separated from the "query engine" part (which btw is written in Rust) because they speak http. But step by step. For most people, being able to install an npm dependency is the most important part here. But one thing you can already get used to - Prisma will stick around and _not_ just be a thing that new engineers who don't feel like SQL use.
- hervelabas 6y ago
  > My first instinct was to say type safety, but you don't really get that with JS either way. You get type safety if using it with TypeScript though: this is where Prisma adds a lot of value. Compile-time warnings, ease of refactoring...
hypewatch 6y ago
These types of tools are effectively another way to parameterize your SQL that _feels_ more like writing in your scripting language (nodejs in this case) This approach is notorious for generating inefficient sql queries, but it can improve jr fronted dev productivity b/c a tool like this is easier to learn than SQL.
sorenbs 6y ago
I'd suggest you watch the Prisma Day talks when they are published or give it a try. If you are a grumpy HN troll, then Prisma might not be for you, and that's okay. SQL is great for many cases, and you might not need to expand your horizon. If you do choose to look into Prisma and have serious thoughts on how we could improve, then I would love to get on a call to talk about it (contact info in bio).
- nogabebop23 6y ago
  >> If you are a grumpy HN troll I guess I am, since I expect a new company with a confusing value proposition to show me why they're better than 50+ years of proven RDBMS technology vs. an "OK Boomer" watch a video and "serious questions only". And you WORK for this company? Better develop a thicker skin...
  - SkyPuncher 6y ago
    > And you WORK for this company? Better develop a thicker skin... Not only does he work for this company. He co-founded it. Unbelievable response from a co-founder. I've had my reservations about Prisma (I don't think it solves a problem for me), but this pretty much discourages me from using it entirely.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      To be fair, you're not going to get a fair and balanced viewpoint about a product from a founder.
- SkyPuncher 6y ago
  I just cannot wrap my head around the co-founder reacting this way in a thread about his company. I too don't understand what I would use this product for. That doesn't mean it's a bad product, I just don't have a personal need for it. I don't really like eating grapefruit. If you're a grapefruit farmer, it doesn't mean you farm a bad fruit. Lots of people like grapefruit. I just don't like it personally. Calling someone like me an "HN troll" because they're critical of your product is a pretty bad look.

I’m not seeing why I’d use this over sql. Can someone please enlighten me as I find this to be much more gobbledegook than sql.

by kevas 6y ago

I’m not seeing why I’d use this over sql. Can someone please enlighten me as I find this to be much more gobbledegook than sql.

lordofgibbons 6y ago

My first instinct was to say type safety, but you don't really get that with JS either way. Maybe it would be popular for new engineers that don't feel like learning SQL. Same reason why MongoDB got popular.

kevas 6y ago
My first thought when I read “feel” in your comment was, “I don’t really care what they feel; if it’s in the job spec, they learn it or get a new job.” That may be a bit harsh, but I’d rather them learn something they can use forever rather than the flavor of the week. Additionally, by learning SQL, they’d be able to apply that domain knowledge to building out queries in the flavor of the week since you know some limitations of the underlying.
derdude 6y ago
> My first instinct was to say type safety, but you don't really get that with JS either way. Correct, but the main experience we are supporting is TypeScript, which has a beautifully designed type system. > Maybe it would be popular for new engineers that don't feel like learning SQL. Same reason why MongoDB got popular. We have more and more senior engineers who want to use Prisma, as they just realized that writing SQL by hand is a waste of time. Let's be honest - learning SQL is still a great skill. Data analytics etc - there are great use-cases. But if you want to get stuff done and scale your team when building an _application_ - you should have a data layer. That's what Facebook, Lyft, Airbnb etc did - they have a dedicated data layer and a team working on that. Do you think an application engineer at Facebook writes SQL? No. Of course not, it would be a total waste of time to let them touch such a low level. It would not allow facebook to scale to where they are, if everyone would write direct SQL. Now the thing is, most small teams don't have the capacity to write a really performant awesome data layer with caching, deduping etc. That's where Prisma comes into play - Prisma gives the weekend producthunt warriors, but also the enterprise teams (like Tryg) a way to abstract away the database. But it's just a library you say? That's true. So in that sense, Prisma is not really a "layer", a different component in your architecture that you can horizontally scale. For that - stay tuned. The "client" part can already easily be separated from the "query engine" part (which btw is written in Rust) because they speak http. But step by step. For most people, being able to install an npm dependency is the most important part here. But one thing you can already get used to - Prisma will stick around and _not_ just be a thing that new engineers who don't feel like SQL use.
hervelabas 6y ago
> My first instinct was to say type safety, but you don't really get that with JS either way. You get type safety if using it with TypeScript though: this is where Prisma adds a lot of value. Compile-time warnings, ease of refactoring...

hypewatch 6y ago

These types of tools are effectively another way to parameterize your SQL that _feels_ more like writing in your scripting language (nodejs in this case) This approach is notorious for generating inefficient sql queries, but it can improve jr fronted dev productivity b/c a tool like this is easier to learn than SQL.

sorenbs 6y ago

I'd suggest you watch the Prisma Day talks when they are published or give it a try. If you are a grumpy HN troll, then Prisma might not be for you, and that's okay. SQL is great for many cases, and you might not need to expand your horizon. If you do choose to look into Prisma and have serious thoughts on how we could improve, then I would love to get on a call to talk about it (contact info in bio).

nogabebop23 6y ago
>> If you are a grumpy HN troll I guess I am, since I expect a new company with a confusing value proposition to show me why they're better than 50+ years of proven RDBMS technology vs. an "OK Boomer" watch a video and "serious questions only". And you WORK for this company? Better develop a thicker skin...
- SkyPuncher 6y ago
  > And you WORK for this company? Better develop a thicker skin... Not only does he work for this company. He co-founded it. Unbelievable response from a co-founder. I've had my reservations about Prisma (I don't think it solves a problem for me), but this pretty much discourages me from using it entirely.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    To be fair, you're not going to get a fair and balanced viewpoint about a product from a founder.
SkyPuncher 6y ago
I just cannot wrap my head around the co-founder reacting this way in a thread about his company. I too don't understand what I would use this product for. That doesn't mean it's a bad product, I just don't have a personal need for it. I don't really like eating grapefruit. If you're a grapefruit farmer, it doesn't mean you farm a bad fruit. Lots of people like grapefruit. I just don't like it personally. Calling someone like me an "HN troll" because they're critical of your product is a pretty bad look.