3 ms·

> I get that - we've lost control of the device, but we now have ubiquitous access to computing - reliable, (relatively) safe access to the internet everywhere

> I get that - we've lost control of the device, but we now have ubiquitous access to computing - reliable, (relatively) safe access to the internet everywhere for nearly everyone. Debatable. What makes computing so much more interesting than other tools is the ability to program them, to make the tool what you need it to be for what you want to do. 80s computer systems got this: they booted into a programming environment. 90s computer systems got this: they gave us HyperCard, VB, Delphi, etc and productivity software like Excel (which I contend is still the most widely used programming environment on earth) became programmable and extendable too. Turning first time computer users into programmers was a goal because that's what computers were for! We don't really have computers like that anymore. What we have are appliances. Sure, they have a lot of add-on modules, but you're not encouraged to program them, to adapt them to your needs, you're encouraged to buy that from somebody else with money and/or turning over data. A lot of those "tools" seek to addict you to their usage so you can be peppered with advertisements. You're consuming, not computing.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
We have different definitions of computing - For me computing is the ability to perform work and get information on a computer, which I think is a lot better these days. Not everyone cares to be a programmer, and to put computers behind that wall serves to stop people from accessing them. That feels kind of like gate-keeping, especially as the modern internet is so incredibly complicated that casual dabbling isn't really good enough to get things done - where in this case "getting things done" is pulling information from web pages, paying bills, emails, etc. It can be a hobby, absolutely, but one that you need to be dedicated to, and as such, not for most people.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  > Not everyone cares to be a programmer, and to put computers behind that wall serves to stop people from accessing them. You misunderstand. I don't lament the existence of appliances, I lament that the hijacking of "computer" to mean "appliance" has lead to a lack of progress in computing environments for those of us who do care about computing.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    As others are saying isn't there Linux for that? I see that conversation is happening elsewhere, so we can end this thread.
chii 6y ago
> You're consuming and most people are fine with that. There's a bit of an elitist mentality that goes with being a programmer - that everybody should be as interested in tinkering as they are. Most people are dumb, non-thinking consumers of output. Most people don't want to have to open their washing machine and tweak the wires. Most people don't want their fridge to be able to do anything other than being a fridge. And most people want their computers to play videos and read emails and websites.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  It's fine to be a consumer, I have no issue with that. But as someone who got into computing because of what computers are, I lament the conflation of "computer" with "appliance" that leads to more and more restriction and less actual computers. I'd like to see computers improve as computers, but even Linux Desktop with all its hackers trends more towards wanting to be a fucking appliance.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  > Most people are dumb, non-thinking consumers of output. That's by design, not nature. > Most people don't want to have to open their washing machine and tweak the wires. Most people don't want their fridge to be able to do anything other than being a fridge. The right comparison isn't the fridge, but Keurig. Imagine a fridge that only accepted a particular brand of packaged meals, and nothing else. Storing leftovers? Forget it. Random food bought at the supermarket? Need to root your fridge first. Medicine? Only if you buy an add-on. That's how modern computing looks like, particularly on mobile. The elitist mentality is the one that insists things have to be this way - that you have to have a hard split between producers and consumers, developers and users. The old-era computing philosophy GP refers to didn't have a hard split here - it enabled one to progress all the way from a novice to a programmer, and also allowed them to stop at the point they're comfortable with.
  - blackoil 6y ago
    There are more then million dishes available in my Fridge market, and I can safely buy/eat any of them without a practical fear of viruses and I don't care if the dish is prepared in India or Indiana. Food is always fresh. In olden days I could have bought food from anywhere but that came with a burden of choice, I had to look for credibility of the vendor, confusing packaging, allergy info. was missing/wrong and there was always a risk of virus. Once a virus caused global outages and pandemic.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago

We have different definitions of computing - For me computing is the ability to perform work and get information on a computer, which I think is a lot better these days. Not everyone cares to be a programmer, and to put computers behind that wall serves to stop people from accessing them. That feels kind of like gate-keeping, especially as the modern internet is so incredibly complicated that casual dabbling isn't really good enough to get things done - where in this case "getting things done" is pulling information from web pages, paying bills, emails, etc. It can be a hobby, absolutely, but one that you need to be dedicated to, and as such, not for most people.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> Not everyone cares to be a programmer, and to put computers behind that wall serves to stop people from accessing them. You misunderstand. I don't lament the existence of appliances, I lament that the hijacking of "computer" to mean "appliance" has lead to a lack of progress in computing environments for those of us who do care about computing.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  As others are saying isn't there Linux for that? I see that conversation is happening elsewhere, so we can end this thread.

chii 6y ago

> You're consuming and most people are fine with that. There's a bit of an elitist mentality that goes with being a programmer - that everybody should be as interested in tinkering as they are. Most people are dumb, non-thinking consumers of output. Most people don't want to have to open their washing machine and tweak the wires. Most people don't want their fridge to be able to do anything other than being a fridge. And most people want their computers to play videos and read emails and websites.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
It's fine to be a consumer, I have no issue with that. But as someone who got into computing because of what computers are, I lament the conflation of "computer" with "appliance" that leads to more and more restriction and less actual computers. I'd like to see computers improve as computers, but even Linux Desktop with all its hackers trends more towards wanting to be a fucking appliance.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
> Most people are dumb, non-thinking consumers of output. That's by design, not nature. > Most people don't want to have to open their washing machine and tweak the wires. Most people don't want their fridge to be able to do anything other than being a fridge. The right comparison isn't the fridge, but Keurig. Imagine a fridge that only accepted a particular brand of packaged meals, and nothing else. Storing leftovers? Forget it. Random food bought at the supermarket? Need to root your fridge first. Medicine? Only if you buy an add-on. That's how modern computing looks like, particularly on mobile. The elitist mentality is the one that insists things have to be this way - that you have to have a hard split between producers and consumers, developers and users. The old-era computing philosophy GP refers to didn't have a hard split here - it enabled one to progress all the way from a novice to a programmer, and also allowed them to stop at the point they're comfortable with.
- blackoil 6y ago
  There are more then million dishes available in my Fridge market, and I can safely buy/eat any of them without a practical fear of viruses and I don't care if the dish is prepared in India or Indiana. Food is always fresh. In olden days I could have bought food from anywhere but that came with a burden of choice, I had to look for credibility of the vendor, confusing packaging, allergy info. was missing/wrong and there was always a risk of virus. Once a virus caused global outages and pandemic.