7 ms·

I'm very curious to see this transition to ARM play out. There is a lot of software that will now be compiled for ARM that can potentially be used in open-sourc

I'm very curious to see this transition to ARM play out. There is a lot of software that will now be compiled for ARM that can potentially be used in open-source projects on much more cost-effective boards. Music (VST) plugins come to mind.

easygenes 6y ago
Isn’t the music industry still reeling from Catalina? Lots of 32-bit audio software out there not getting updated.
- 867-5309 6y ago
  anyone making music with a 4GB RAM ceiling is asking for a headache
  - amiga-workbench 6y ago
    I don't think its full DAW's that are kaput, its plugins and VST's that are no longer working.
    - fit2rule 6y ago
      Can confirm, this has been deadly for those of us who have carefully curated a set of VST's in projects over the years .. there are songs I cannot open any more, alas .. until I find replacements for some of the synths. Well, its a forced upgrade, but nevertheless .. sad ..
  - qchris 6y ago
    For what it's worth, I believe that the RPi4B now also has an option for 8GB RAM.
    - sixothree 6y ago
      And the 32 bit os can access it all (just not per process).
      - tyingq 6y ago
        Well, they do have a beta out: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=275370 https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=275370
      - FractalParadigm 6y ago
        The joys of PAE. For what it's worth, there are 64-bit distros available for the Pi4. IIRC Raspberry Pi OS (formerly known as Raspbian) has been fully 64-bit since the release of the 8GB model, and I know Ubuntu Server offered a 64-bit image for some time before that.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    What if that limit only applies to individual plugin processes?
  - Zardoz84 6y ago
    Umm... So then making music on a 1MiB machine should be impossible ?
    - Symbiote 6y ago
      Here's the original Lemmings soundtrack from the Archimedes version (i.e. the machine under discussion). The game probably ran with 1MiB RAM, certainly it would have worked with 2MiB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXthGJfHLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXthGJfHLc That is the sound from the internal speaker. The computers were also popular for MIDI control, even being chosen by professionals for this, though I can't find a video.
rbanffy 6y ago
> There is a lot of software that will now be compiled for ARM that can potentially be used in open-source projects on much more cost-effective boards Mac software will continue to rely on proprietary APIs. Software that didn't is most likely already ported.
qmmmur 6y ago
VSTs are already really easy to compile for ARM and iPads have been ubiquitously supported for a long time now. https://iplug2.github.io/ https://iplug2.github.io/
- Roboprog 6y ago
  VST? Is that like an AU? Kidding, but since you mentioned iPad...
  - qmmmur 6y ago
    Well the caveat is that the code for a VST could be easily compiled for an ARM target and the result would be an AU.
    - lukeh 6y ago
      It would just be a VST built for ARM, no? They’re different plugin interfaces.
      - qmmmur 6y ago
        Depends really. Something like iPlug2 (https://github.com/iPlug2/iPlug2 https://github.com/iPlug2/iPlug2) would allow you to write code once and compile to all these targets.
qppo 6y ago
VST3 and AU plug-ins have been running on ARM for a decade.
- utopcell 6y ago
  Point me to the ARM Line 6 Helix Native then. Of course it is possible to compile for ARM, but mainstreaming the architecture at the level of Apple implies that all the big players will be building for ARM.
rrmm 6y ago
If I were a user in the music/film industry I would be worried if I depended on Apple. Apple has shown pretty clearly they see themselves as a consumer electronics and services company above all. If all the "professional" users who rely on Logic or FC or Apple in general jumped ship, Apple wouldn't likely notice it in their bottom line (loss of mindshare not withstanding). They have no vested interest in catering to these users and have produced hardware intended for them as an afterthought. The high cost of hardware and absence of middle tier products that make sense for these users is just icing on the cake. "Professional" users of Logic or FC have little leverage to affect the course of Apple one way or another (unlike a more focused company whose business model is catering to these groups). On the other hand Apple pro users do have a long history of being abused by the company so they might be alright with it in the end. Anyway, I'd be looking for an out if I were them.
- flir 6y ago
  It seems to be such short-term thinking to me. They became a desirable brand because creatives both used and recommended them.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    I'm currently in the market for a pro NLE. In the mockups I've seen of actual workspaces on some NLE websites, not a single Apple logo was seen (but other logos were).
- samatman 6y ago
  I think this is completely backward. To a first approximation, Apple only cares about video producers, software developers, publishers, and musicians, in their Mac strategy. In approximately that order. The only reason developers are on that list, is because XCode is how software gets written for the rest of their platforms; the dominance of Macs as personal workstations for Valley-style development is only a side effect of that. These users provide a halo for everyone else. A college student might spend an extra $1000 on their laptop because they want to moonlight on some beats, or have a YouTube channel, that sort of thing. I remember seeing this disconnect when the new Mac Pro was released and many here dismissed it as too expensive. Someone who works in CGI came around to say that, no, $50,000 is a normal amount of money to spend on their workstations and that their company was ecstatic to be able to keep working with macOS.
grawprog 6y ago
The thing about arm that's always troubled me, which I only see talked about infrequently, is the way it's licensed vs x86_64 chips. Arm chips are licensed in such a way that allows for a multitude of different proprietary configurations that all are essentially arm chips, but locked down at the whims of the manufacturers. I understand power usage is a big concern these days, but I can't help but feel this aspect of arm is greatly overlooked and that the push towards arm devices is also partially inspired by the ability to lock down chip designs to a greater capacity than x86_64 chips. Just look at the existing fragmentation among arm powered devices as is. I don't really like the thought of what an arm powered future could look like. I really wish I could remember what video it was, but I remember years ago watching the ceo of arm present a new chip with built in emulation technology, that theoretically, would have allowed multiple operating systems to run at once or something. I remember the person talking to him asked if he forsaw this as the future, and he just laughed and said oh no, no manufacturers would never dream of allowing this and furthermore they'll likely use this technology to further specialize and lockdown their chips. It may be personal bias, but since then and other things i've learned about arm, I've just had this lingering unease as to what them gaining dominance would mean to general computing.
- Xixi 6y ago
  The thing with x86_64 is that Apple/Amazon/Google/Samsung/Fujitsu/etc cannot license it. There are only two corporations with x86 licenses granted by Intel: AMD and VIA. These licenses are not transferable, and a even a badly managed acquisition could result in the license being revoked. So moving out of the x86/x86_64 world is really a no-brainer: why would all the electronic giants keep paying for x86 when they can get out of the de-facto duopoly? It seems that they are settling on ARM (Amazon Graviton, Fujitsu A64FX, Apple A12Z, etc.). It could have been another architecture, but it couldn't be x86_64. On the other hand, there are other architectures besides ARM and x86: RISC-V, OpenSPARC, etc. Maybe one of these would be better for developers who don't want to deal with the ARM landscape fragmentation.
  - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
    X86, as I understand, has the advantage of a fairly widely implemented ISA that specifies all sorts of things about how other things on the motherboard communicate with each other and with the CPU
bashinator 6y ago
Don't audio applications tend to use a ton of floating point? I thought that was one of the few areas where x86 still has a significant advantage.
fit2rule 6y ago
>Music (VST) plugins come to mind. There have been multiple attempts to build an x86-based VST host, over and over. It will be about 1000x easier to do, if everyone builds for ARM. However! ARM DSP/synthesis is fraught with minefields. One mans ARM is not a SHARC, etc. It should be noted that there are already mainstream synth manufacturers shipping ARM platforms .. and there is no virulent unruly lunatic fringe like the synth lunatic fringe, btw.

easygenes 6y ago

Isn’t the music industry still reeling from Catalina? Lots of 32-bit audio software out there not getting updated.

867-5309 6y ago
anyone making music with a 4GB RAM ceiling is asking for a headache
- amiga-workbench 6y ago
  I don't think its full DAW's that are kaput, its plugins and VST's that are no longer working.
  - fit2rule 6y ago
    Can confirm, this has been deadly for those of us who have carefully curated a set of VST's in projects over the years .. there are songs I cannot open any more, alas .. until I find replacements for some of the synths. Well, its a forced upgrade, but nevertheless .. sad ..
- qchris 6y ago
  For what it's worth, I believe that the RPi4B now also has an option for 8GB RAM.
  - sixothree 6y ago
    And the 32 bit os can access it all (just not per process).
    - tyingq 6y ago
      Well, they do have a beta out: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=275370 https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=275370
    - FractalParadigm 6y ago
      The joys of PAE. For what it's worth, there are 64-bit distros available for the Pi4. IIRC Raspberry Pi OS (formerly known as Raspbian) has been fully 64-bit since the release of the 8GB model, and I know Ubuntu Server offered a 64-bit image for some time before that.
- imtringued 6y ago
  What if that limit only applies to individual plugin processes?
- Zardoz84 6y ago
  Umm... So then making music on a 1MiB machine should be impossible ?
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    Here's the original Lemmings soundtrack from the Archimedes version (i.e. the machine under discussion). The game probably ran with 1MiB RAM, certainly it would have worked with 2MiB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXthGJfHLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXthGJfHLc That is the sound from the internal speaker. The computers were also popular for MIDI control, even being chosen by professionals for this, though I can't find a video.

rbanffy 6y ago

> There is a lot of software that will now be compiled for ARM that can potentially be used in open-source projects on much more cost-effective boards Mac software will continue to rely on proprietary APIs. Software that didn't is most likely already ported.

qmmmur 6y ago

VSTs are already really easy to compile for ARM and iPads have been ubiquitously supported for a long time now. https://iplug2.github.io/ https://iplug2.github.io/

Roboprog 6y ago
VST? Is that like an AU? Kidding, but since you mentioned iPad...
- qmmmur 6y ago
  Well the caveat is that the code for a VST could be easily compiled for an ARM target and the result would be an AU.
  - lukeh 6y ago
    It would just be a VST built for ARM, no? They’re different plugin interfaces.
    - qmmmur 6y ago
      Depends really. Something like iPlug2 (https://github.com/iPlug2/iPlug2 https://github.com/iPlug2/iPlug2) would allow you to write code once and compile to all these targets.

qppo 6y ago

VST3 and AU plug-ins have been running on ARM for a decade.

utopcell 6y ago
Point me to the ARM Line 6 Helix Native then. Of course it is possible to compile for ARM, but mainstreaming the architecture at the level of Apple implies that all the big players will be building for ARM.

rrmm 6y ago

If I were a user in the music/film industry I would be worried if I depended on Apple. Apple has shown pretty clearly they see themselves as a consumer electronics and services company above all. If all the "professional" users who rely on Logic or FC or Apple in general jumped ship, Apple wouldn't likely notice it in their bottom line (loss of mindshare not withstanding). They have no vested interest in catering to these users and have produced hardware intended for them as an afterthought. The high cost of hardware and absence of middle tier products that make sense for these users is just icing on the cake. "Professional" users of Logic or FC have little leverage to affect the course of Apple one way or another (unlike a more focused company whose business model is catering to these groups). On the other hand Apple pro users do have a long history of being abused by the company so they might be alright with it in the end. Anyway, I'd be looking for an out if I were them.

flir 6y ago
It seems to be such short-term thinking to me. They became a desirable brand because creatives both used and recommended them.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  I'm currently in the market for a pro NLE. In the mockups I've seen of actual workspaces on some NLE websites, not a single Apple logo was seen (but other logos were).
samatman 6y ago
I think this is completely backward. To a first approximation, Apple only cares about video producers, software developers, publishers, and musicians, in their Mac strategy. In approximately that order. The only reason developers are on that list, is because XCode is how software gets written for the rest of their platforms; the dominance of Macs as personal workstations for Valley-style development is only a side effect of that. These users provide a halo for everyone else. A college student might spend an extra $1000 on their laptop because they want to moonlight on some beats, or have a YouTube channel, that sort of thing. I remember seeing this disconnect when the new Mac Pro was released and many here dismissed it as too expensive. Someone who works in CGI came around to say that, no, $50,000 is a normal amount of money to spend on their workstations and that their company was ecstatic to be able to keep working with macOS.

grawprog 6y ago

The thing about arm that's always troubled me, which I only see talked about infrequently, is the way it's licensed vs x86_64 chips. Arm chips are licensed in such a way that allows for a multitude of different proprietary configurations that all are essentially arm chips, but locked down at the whims of the manufacturers. I understand power usage is a big concern these days, but I can't help but feel this aspect of arm is greatly overlooked and that the push towards arm devices is also partially inspired by the ability to lock down chip designs to a greater capacity than x86_64 chips. Just look at the existing fragmentation among arm powered devices as is. I don't really like the thought of what an arm powered future could look like. I really wish I could remember what video it was, but I remember years ago watching the ceo of arm present a new chip with built in emulation technology, that theoretically, would have allowed multiple operating systems to run at once or something. I remember the person talking to him asked if he forsaw this as the future, and he just laughed and said oh no, no manufacturers would never dream of allowing this and furthermore they'll likely use this technology to further specialize and lockdown their chips. It may be personal bias, but since then and other things i've learned about arm, I've just had this lingering unease as to what them gaining dominance would mean to general computing.

Xixi 6y ago
The thing with x86_64 is that Apple/Amazon/Google/Samsung/Fujitsu/etc cannot license it. There are only two corporations with x86 licenses granted by Intel: AMD and VIA. These licenses are not transferable, and a even a badly managed acquisition could result in the license being revoked. So moving out of the x86/x86_64 world is really a no-brainer: why would all the electronic giants keep paying for x86 when they can get out of the de-facto duopoly? It seems that they are settling on ARM (Amazon Graviton, Fujitsu A64FX, Apple A12Z, etc.). It could have been another architecture, but it couldn't be x86_64. On the other hand, there are other architectures besides ARM and x86: RISC-V, OpenSPARC, etc. Maybe one of these would be better for developers who don't want to deal with the ARM landscape fragmentation.
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
  X86, as I understand, has the advantage of a fairly widely implemented ISA that specifies all sorts of things about how other things on the motherboard communicate with each other and with the CPU

bashinator 6y ago

Don't audio applications tend to use a ton of floating point? I thought that was one of the few areas where x86 still has a significant advantage.

fit2rule 6y ago

>Music (VST) plugins come to mind. There have been multiple attempts to build an x86-based VST host, over and over. It will be about 1000x easier to do, if everyone builds for ARM. However! ARM DSP/synthesis is fraught with minefields. One mans ARM is not a SHARC, etc. It should be noted that there are already mainstream synth manufacturers shipping ARM platforms .. and there is no virulent unruly lunatic fringe like the synth lunatic fringe, btw.