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Why doesn't ATC demand they come in to line, the copilot didn't appear to explain the very high approach (7000ft when they should be 3000ft) ... is there a bene

Why doesn't ATC demand they come in to line, the copilot didn't appear to explain the very high approach (7000ft when they should be 3000ft) ... is there a benefit to it?? First thing I learnt on a flight sim: slow down or you can't extend gear. Is the co-pilot allowed to smash the pilot in the face and take over when they realise they're ignoring basic instructions?

HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago
Well, it's his life on the line, so sure he's allowed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
tialaramex 6y ago
They're both pilots, or, if you want to put it that way, both co-pilots. The ranks are typically "Captain" and "First officer" and what ought to matter in a well-trained team is Pilot Flying versus Pilot Monitoring (sometimes other phrasing is used but that name scheme is pretty clear what's happening). It takes explicit training to overcome a human tendency to defer, and that means training for all crew and especially cockpit crew. This is called Crew Resource Management and it involves learning interpersonal skills that enable the team to prevent individual human errors from having grave consequences. CRM is most often important in the cockpit, in this example to get the pilot flying the plane to agree that this approach is bad and they need to try a fresh approach. But CRM extends beyond the cockpit because in some incidents it's vital to remember that the rest of the crew are experts too, just not in flying a plane.
- numpad0 6y ago
  It took me too long to get this so I’ll leave it here: Colloquially we call all aviator people as “pilots” but technically the person on the left seat is Captain and to the right is First Officer/Pilot/Co-Pilot. Like on marine vessels, the original idea is that the captain has the full authority to his ship and his first officer steers it under his order. That extra hierarchy lead to several accidents so newer concepts such as PM/PF or CRM rules were conceived, but as far as terminologies go that’s what captain/officer stands for.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> Why doesn't ATC demand they come in to line Time and workload permitting, ATC should inform aircraft of deviations. But most ATC, even in the US, are not pilots. And ATC instructions are required to be followed except in an emergency, but "demand" is not the right word, as the captain is the final authority in civil flights. > Is the co-pilot allowed to smash the pilot in the face Well, that would be unusual, and doing it on final pretty hazardous. But in the Germanwings and probably MH370 accidents, that was the only option to avoid those accidents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 In small airplanes, instructors are prepared to override the rudder by evaluating how strong students are ("So, do you go to the gym?"), and purposefully focusing maximum force on the rudder controls.

HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago

Well, it's his life on the line, so sure he's allowed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management

tialaramex 6y ago

They're both pilots, or, if you want to put it that way, both co-pilots. The ranks are typically "Captain" and "First officer" and what ought to matter in a well-trained team is Pilot Flying versus Pilot Monitoring (sometimes other phrasing is used but that name scheme is pretty clear what's happening). It takes explicit training to overcome a human tendency to defer, and that means training for all crew and especially cockpit crew. This is called Crew Resource Management and it involves learning interpersonal skills that enable the team to prevent individual human errors from having grave consequences. CRM is most often important in the cockpit, in this example to get the pilot flying the plane to agree that this approach is bad and they need to try a fresh approach. But CRM extends beyond the cockpit because in some incidents it's vital to remember that the rest of the crew are experts too, just not in flying a plane.

numpad0 6y ago
It took me too long to get this so I’ll leave it here: Colloquially we call all aviator people as “pilots” but technically the person on the left seat is Captain and to the right is First Officer/Pilot/Co-Pilot. Like on marine vessels, the original idea is that the captain has the full authority to his ship and his first officer steers it under his order. That extra hierarchy lead to several accidents so newer concepts such as PM/PF or CRM rules were conceived, but as far as terminologies go that’s what captain/officer stands for.

redis_mlc 6y ago

> Why doesn't ATC demand they come in to line Time and workload permitting, ATC should inform aircraft of deviations. But most ATC, even in the US, are not pilots. And ATC instructions are required to be followed except in an emergency, but "demand" is not the right word, as the captain is the final authority in civil flights. > Is the co-pilot allowed to smash the pilot in the face Well, that would be unusual, and doing it on final pretty hazardous. But in the Germanwings and probably MH370 accidents, that was the only option to avoid those accidents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 In small airplanes, instructors are prepared to override the rudder by evaluating how strong students are ("So, do you go to the gym?"), and purposefully focusing maximum force on the rudder controls.