5 ms·

With China on the one end going into full dystopian mode and the US aiming for a modern police state, I really wonder what the endgame is. Full fascism again?

gentleman11 6y ago
Again? When was the USA or world fully fascist? Whose endgame?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mcv 6y ago
  Fascism did control quite a number of countries some 80 years ago. I think it's not unreasonable to say that full fascism was their endgame.
  - mjburgess 6y ago
    Fascism was a political situation in 1930s italy. I think the commentor is objecting to this new, rhetorical use of the term which essentially connects any "nostalgic, authoriatrian" impulse to a 1930s-style tyranny. The left's use of "fascism" today is much like the rights use of "socialism/communism".
    - grey-area 6y ago
      Just like the symbol of fasces was only used in ancient Rome and has no other meaning? Or the swastika, used in India as a symbol meaning wellbeing? Do you genuinely think symbolism and the meaning of words isn't plastic and contingent on context?
      - mjburgess 6y ago
        I think when people trade on the negative connotations of "fascism" and then turn around and go "oh i mean this..." they're being duplicitous and alarmist. The antifa lot essentially define fascism as an eternal set of human psychological impulses: nostalgia, in-group preference, desire for cultural homogenity, etc. These did not lead to Fascism, the "obviously bad thing" which they are being alarmist about. Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. Words do have meaning, and it is precisely the negative connotations of fascism that are being appealed to in the accusation. Absent these connotations, almost everyone is fascist some of the time.
        bluescarni 6y ago
        > Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. That is grossly wrong. There was no "mass death and poverty" in Italy during or after WWI.
        mjburgess 6y ago
        wtf are you talking about? Half a million Italians died in WW1. And as many again from the spanish flu. And all of Europe was in a permanent condition of poverty until way into the 20th C. 80% of the population was poor working class even in 1970. You do not get Russian communism without the prolonged period of slavery called "serfdom" which persisted into the late 19th C. in russia. You do not get fascism in italy without WW1. This isn't controversial in political science.
        bluescarni 6y ago
        The Italian deaths in WW1 were overwhelmingly soldier deaths, as the fighting on Italian soil was limited to north-east border of the country (where incidentally I am from). The civilian population was largely unaffected by the war. > And as many again from the spanish flu. Who talked about flu? You were talking about WW1, now you are pivoting to the flu? > And all of Europe was in a permanent condition of poverty until way into the 20th C. 80% of the population was poor working class even in 1970. This is also grossly wrong. I suggest you better inform yourself about the 20-th century history of European societies before spouting more nonsense.
- choeger 6y ago
  Full fascism just means a state that is overtly fascist. We already have notable anti-semitic movements in Europe, as well as overtly authoritan governments. We also have massive militarization and secret policing in parts of Europe and the US. I do not see anything that prevents these trends to merge towards full fascism again. Of course it might have a different flavor this time. As in "Ok, this time we do not harass the (white, non-jewish) gays.", or even "Yes, Ok, the slaves are not really inferior.", but that are minor differences.
aaronbrethorst 6y ago
Tom Cotton is a cosponsor.
nix23 6y ago
Would be exceptionally fine if Europe leave out this round of overall extremism...would be a first timer ;)
- eitland 6y ago
  You wish. Norwegian politicians voted to allow police to control everything that crosses the border (edit2:)digitally. Which, in a small country like ours means pretty much everything. Edit: they did it despite the entire (edit3:) IT industry yelling at them and Amnesty International carefully trying to tell them to stop. That said, I guess the last word hasn't been said yet. Also equally bad things have been turned around before and for the first time in my life I feel the urge to participate in politics.
  - nix23 6y ago
    Well i would not call that extremism...unless they check also the Reindeer's. And yes i wish....knock on wood EDIT: >Amnesty International carefully trying to tell them to stop. Why has AI a problem with checking peoples on a border? EDIT2: I really don't see anything about that on their site: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/norway/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia...
    - eitland 6y ago
      That was some sloppy writing by me. I've edited my previous post to avoid further confusion. (It is about data traffic, not ordinary customs.)
      - nix23 6y ago
        Oh yes that's bad, still did no found anything about that on AI website, maybe you mean the EFF?
        eitland 6y ago
        Couldn't find the original written answer from them but here are some details (in Norwegian): https://www.stortinget.no/nn/Saker-og-publikasjonar/publikasjonar/Innstillingar/Stortinget/2019-2020/inns-201920-357l/?all=true https://www.stortinget.no/nn/Saker-og-publikasjonar/publikas...

gentleman11 6y ago

Again? When was the USA or world fully fascist? Whose endgame?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mcv 6y ago
Fascism did control quite a number of countries some 80 years ago. I think it's not unreasonable to say that full fascism was their endgame.
- mjburgess 6y ago
  Fascism was a political situation in 1930s italy. I think the commentor is objecting to this new, rhetorical use of the term which essentially connects any "nostalgic, authoriatrian" impulse to a 1930s-style tyranny. The left's use of "fascism" today is much like the rights use of "socialism/communism".
  - grey-area 6y ago
    Just like the symbol of fasces was only used in ancient Rome and has no other meaning? Or the swastika, used in India as a symbol meaning wellbeing? Do you genuinely think symbolism and the meaning of words isn't plastic and contingent on context?
    - mjburgess 6y ago
      I think when people trade on the negative connotations of "fascism" and then turn around and go "oh i mean this..." they're being duplicitous and alarmist. The antifa lot essentially define fascism as an eternal set of human psychological impulses: nostalgia, in-group preference, desire for cultural homogenity, etc. These did not lead to Fascism, the "obviously bad thing" which they are being alarmist about. Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. Words do have meaning, and it is precisely the negative connotations of fascism that are being appealed to in the accusation. Absent these connotations, almost everyone is fascist some of the time.
      - bluescarni 6y ago
        > Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. That is grossly wrong. There was no "mass death and poverty" in Italy during or after WWI.
        mjburgess 6y ago
        wtf are you talking about? Half a million Italians died in WW1. And as many again from the spanish flu. And all of Europe was in a permanent condition of poverty until way into the 20th C. 80% of the population was poor working class even in 1970. You do not get Russian communism without the prolonged period of slavery called "serfdom" which persisted into the late 19th C. in russia. You do not get fascism in italy without WW1. This isn't controversial in political science.
        bluescarni 6y ago
        The Italian deaths in WW1 were overwhelmingly soldier deaths, as the fighting on Italian soil was limited to north-east border of the country (where incidentally I am from). The civilian population was largely unaffected by the war. > And as many again from the spanish flu. Who talked about flu? You were talking about WW1, now you are pivoting to the flu? > And all of Europe was in a permanent condition of poverty until way into the 20th C. 80% of the population was poor working class even in 1970. This is also grossly wrong. I suggest you better inform yourself about the 20-th century history of European societies before spouting more nonsense.
choeger 6y ago
Full fascism just means a state that is overtly fascist. We already have notable anti-semitic movements in Europe, as well as overtly authoritan governments. We also have massive militarization and secret policing in parts of Europe and the US. I do not see anything that prevents these trends to merge towards full fascism again. Of course it might have a different flavor this time. As in "Ok, this time we do not harass the (white, non-jewish) gays.", or even "Yes, Ok, the slaves are not really inferior.", but that are minor differences.

aaronbrethorst 6y ago

Tom Cotton is a cosponsor.

nix23 6y ago

Would be exceptionally fine if Europe leave out this round of overall extremism...would be a first timer ;)

eitland 6y ago
You wish. Norwegian politicians voted to allow police to control everything that crosses the border (edit2:)digitally. Which, in a small country like ours means pretty much everything. Edit: they did it despite the entire (edit3:) IT industry yelling at them and Amnesty International carefully trying to tell them to stop. That said, I guess the last word hasn't been said yet. Also equally bad things have been turned around before and for the first time in my life I feel the urge to participate in politics.
- nix23 6y ago
  Well i would not call that extremism...unless they check also the Reindeer's. And yes i wish....knock on wood EDIT: >Amnesty International carefully trying to tell them to stop. Why has AI a problem with checking peoples on a border? EDIT2: I really don't see anything about that on their site: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/norway/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia...
  - eitland 6y ago
    That was some sloppy writing by me. I've edited my previous post to avoid further confusion. (It is about data traffic, not ordinary customs.)
    - nix23 6y ago
      Oh yes that's bad, still did no found anything about that on AI website, maybe you mean the EFF?
      - eitland 6y ago
        Couldn't find the original written answer from them but here are some details (in Norwegian): https://www.stortinget.no/nn/Saker-og-publikasjonar/publikasjonar/Innstillingar/Stortinget/2019-2020/inns-201920-357l/?all=true https://www.stortinget.no/nn/Saker-og-publikasjonar/publikas...