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I don't think equating racist power structures in police and government to red scare communists is a good analogy. The fear of communists was mostly made up in

I don't think equating racist power structures in police and government to red scare communists is a good analogy. The fear of communists was mostly made up in rhetoric. The protestors on race relations are pretty clear on why they're upset.

TMWNN 6y ago
The US and the West faced for 45 years a totalitarian system that had conquered a dozen neighboring countries and had a powerful military. How far was "too far" in combating that? As mentioned, there were Communist spies in the US government, far more than was generally understood at the time; we know that now thanks to the Venona files. That doesn't change the fact that Joe McCarthy was almost always correct only by accident. (You shoot in a random direction often enough, you'll hit someone eventually.) Worse, his excessive rhetoric likely for years discouraged legitimate rooting out of said spies.
raxxorrax 6y ago
Communism, like fascism is an undemocratic form of governance. The latter is much worse for most people, but that doesn't mean communism isn't misanthropic as well. It is based on childish axioms that creates fault lines where none should be under an illusion of empowerment. Formerly economic, now we see this disaster around race and sex which certainly doesn't result in more understanding for anyone. There was certainly a red scare which was borderline idiotic, but communism/late marxism should be abolished just like fascism or restricted to idealistic teenagers in favor of democracy.
luckylion 6y ago
> The fear of communists was mostly made up in rhetoric. Maybe ask the West-Berliners that the SU tried to starve to make them surrender and become part of the SU.
- cgrealy 6y ago
  “Communism” != “Soviet style totalitarianism”. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being a communist. You don’t have to agree with it as a political philosophy (I don’t), but it’s no worse than being a capitalist.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Let's not go down the "those aren't real communists" route. The communists in the West were by and large always very cozy with the SU. Hell, they loved Stalin so much and wanted to hear so little that Orwell sat down to write a fable to explain the issues to them.
    - klmadfejno 6y ago
      One of the most famous moments was the waving of an imaginary list with known communists embedded in the government. Regardless of your view on the 'realness' of those who actually were communists, the point is that it was largely speculative who was part of them. The concerns of the BLM protestors are not that there are hidden racists, but overt bad actors with tangible track records of oppressive behaviors.
      - fennecfoxen 6y ago
        Another of the famous moments was when McCarthy called out Frederick G. Fisher, a young lawyer, as a proxy attack on his political opponent, Joseph Welch. "Before this moment, I never appreciated your cruelty," remarked Mr. Welch, noting, "you have sat within six feet of me and could have asked me about Fred Fisher." He asked the Senator: "Have you no decency, sir?" He was offended, and thought it indecent, that this young man, a nobody and a nonentity, should have his name paraded front of the entire nation, accused of betrayal, his reputation jeopardized not by any proceeding undertaken for the sake of justice, but rather, in the mainfestly unfair court of public opinion, for the sake of his outrage machine. Eighteen months ago this nation witnessed Nicholas Sandmann, a random eleventh grader from Covington, Kentucky, excoriated on national television. There are those who still believe it was justice, that the boy had it coming, and declare that he has a "punchable" face. If someone has stood up and called this indecent, it was little noted. CNN settled a lawsuit over the matter, but has not issued an apology; our outrage machine has rolled on to other matters, and will continue to do so with little heed to justice.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        > Regardless of your view on the 'realness' of those who actually were communists, the point is that it was largely speculative who was part of them. No, the argument was that "the threat" was "mostly made up". I assure you, it was not.

TMWNN 6y ago

The US and the West faced for 45 years a totalitarian system that had conquered a dozen neighboring countries and had a powerful military. How far was "too far" in combating that? As mentioned, there were Communist spies in the US government, far more than was generally understood at the time; we know that now thanks to the Venona files. That doesn't change the fact that Joe McCarthy was almost always correct only by accident. (You shoot in a random direction often enough, you'll hit someone eventually.) Worse, his excessive rhetoric likely for years discouraged legitimate rooting out of said spies.

raxxorrax 6y ago

Communism, like fascism is an undemocratic form of governance. The latter is much worse for most people, but that doesn't mean communism isn't misanthropic as well. It is based on childish axioms that creates fault lines where none should be under an illusion of empowerment. Formerly economic, now we see this disaster around race and sex which certainly doesn't result in more understanding for anyone. There was certainly a red scare which was borderline idiotic, but communism/late marxism should be abolished just like fascism or restricted to idealistic teenagers in favor of democracy.

luckylion 6y ago

> The fear of communists was mostly made up in rhetoric. Maybe ask the West-Berliners that the SU tried to starve to make them surrender and become part of the SU.

cgrealy 6y ago
“Communism” != “Soviet style totalitarianism”. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being a communist. You don’t have to agree with it as a political philosophy (I don’t), but it’s no worse than being a capitalist.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Let's not go down the "those aren't real communists" route. The communists in the West were by and large always very cozy with the SU. Hell, they loved Stalin so much and wanted to hear so little that Orwell sat down to write a fable to explain the issues to them.
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    One of the most famous moments was the waving of an imaginary list with known communists embedded in the government. Regardless of your view on the 'realness' of those who actually were communists, the point is that it was largely speculative who was part of them. The concerns of the BLM protestors are not that there are hidden racists, but overt bad actors with tangible track records of oppressive behaviors.
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      Another of the famous moments was when McCarthy called out Frederick G. Fisher, a young lawyer, as a proxy attack on his political opponent, Joseph Welch. "Before this moment, I never appreciated your cruelty," remarked Mr. Welch, noting, "you have sat within six feet of me and could have asked me about Fred Fisher." He asked the Senator: "Have you no decency, sir?" He was offended, and thought it indecent, that this young man, a nobody and a nonentity, should have his name paraded front of the entire nation, accused of betrayal, his reputation jeopardized not by any proceeding undertaken for the sake of justice, but rather, in the mainfestly unfair court of public opinion, for the sake of his outrage machine. Eighteen months ago this nation witnessed Nicholas Sandmann, a random eleventh grader from Covington, Kentucky, excoriated on national television. There are those who still believe it was justice, that the boy had it coming, and declare that he has a "punchable" face. If someone has stood up and called this indecent, it was little noted. CNN settled a lawsuit over the matter, but has not issued an apology; our outrage machine has rolled on to other matters, and will continue to do so with little heed to justice.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > Regardless of your view on the 'realness' of those who actually were communists, the point is that it was largely speculative who was part of them. No, the argument was that "the threat" was "mostly made up". I assure you, it was not.