4 ms·

Why do you believe Windows running on someone else's computer is a threat to your network? It seems to me that if Windows's telemetry is a threat, it's a threat

Why do you believe Windows running on someone else's computer is a threat to your network? It seems to me that if Windows's telemetry is a threat, it's a threat to that person's computer and not your network. So this strikes me as an extreme overreaction. Disclosure: I work at Microsoft on the Windows accessibility team. But this is my own opinion, posted on my initiative, and I do try to have nuanced positions even when it comes to my employer.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
> Why do you believe Windows running on someone else's computer is a threat to your network? Not the OP, but given how Windows 10 treats the privacy of its localhost user, I can't rule out it trying to obtain information about other hosts on my network and sending it back to Microsoft. Can I truly rule out the possibility of it sniffing network traffic to see what DNS queries are posed by other devices on the network? Or telling Microsoft about the count/timing/type of cellphones connected to my network?
- Silhouette 6y ago
  I concur. Unfortunately, Microsoft has forfeited a lot of trust in recent years through a series of user-hostile acts it has taken in connection with Windows 10. It's prudent to apply the principle of least privilege with any device on your network, and given those user-hostile measures, a rational response is to consider a Windows 10 machine as potentially hostile and apply similar restrictions to something like a BYOD environment. After all, a device can't compromise information it never has through an external firewall that won't let it phone home.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  Can you truly rule that out with any other OS?
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    There is a difference between something you can't rule out as impossible because it isn't a violation of the laws of physics and something you can't rule out as implausible based on the observed past behavior of the entity responsible. If I told you that an operating system has just been caught doing that, would your first guess be Windows or Debian?
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      Debian itself I wouldn't worry about much, but Mac OS would be close to Windows. And I'd be more worried about malware than the OS. Especially phone malware.
ddevault 6y ago
You assume that Microsoft has the presumption of good will. They do not.
chris37879 6y ago
For me it's because I just don't trust Microsoft anymore. Whats stopping them from using their broad powers under their EULA from collecting information about any device on my network that will respond to the Windows 10 machine's request? The amount of telemetry they force you to accept just to use Windows 10 is unacceptable. If I want a local user account without the OS phoning home for anything other than Windows Update, I should be able to do that. Instead, on a default install of Windows 10 Pro, which I bought a license for, I get tons of preinstalled crapware / links to install said crapware, a barrage of attempts to convert my local user account to a Microsoft account, an antivirus tool that's so aggressive that some of my software development tools have had to include directions for whitelisting their cache directories, and just this persistent worry that Microsoft will push out the next update and break my PC or start collecting new data, or re-enabling things I've already disabled. My ideal Windows 10 setup would be basically Windows 7 + a wizard of 'Do you want this feature / telemetry' that actually respects my answers.
PeterStuer 6y ago
Trust is hard to gain and easy to lose. Rationally any device you allow unisolated on your network is a potential threat. Rationally you'd be more worried about infectious malicious packages or applications the user might have unknowingly installed and active than the base system/OS itself. Empathically people will tend to tar with a bigger brush, like banning all Windows machines of the network, or not allowing any Huawei devices etc. While these may not be 100% rational trade-offs, there are underpinnings in some if not all of these cases that can have some merit. The US lenience with regards to surveillance and their gagging laws, same for the Chinese etc. So once that trust is lost, you will be hard pressed to convince people otherwise. What measures if any they are willing/capable to implement in light of that lack of trust will of course be different from person to person. One person's 'extreme overreaction' is another person's 'healthy caution'. One person's 'Calculated Risk' will be another person's 'Callous Neglect'.
jnxx 6y ago
> Why do you believe Windows running on someone else's computer is a threat to your network? For example because it stores WiFi credentials without explicit permission, and even hides the passwords? https://superuser.com/questions/1498494/where-does-windows10-saves-wifi-login-password-for-automatic-wifi-login https://superuser.com/questions/1498494/where-does-windows10...

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago

> Why do you believe Windows running on someone else's computer is a threat to your network? Not the OP, but given how Windows 10 treats the privacy of its localhost user, I can't rule out it trying to obtain information about other hosts on my network and sending it back to Microsoft. Can I truly rule out the possibility of it sniffing network traffic to see what DNS queries are posed by other devices on the network? Or telling Microsoft about the count/timing/type of cellphones connected to my network?

Silhouette 6y ago
I concur. Unfortunately, Microsoft has forfeited a lot of trust in recent years through a series of user-hostile acts it has taken in connection with Windows 10. It's prudent to apply the principle of least privilege with any device on your network, and given those user-hostile measures, a rational response is to consider a Windows 10 machine as potentially hostile and apply similar restrictions to something like a BYOD environment. After all, a device can't compromise information it never has through an external firewall that won't let it phone home.
Dylan16807 6y ago
Can you truly rule that out with any other OS?
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  There is a difference between something you can't rule out as impossible because it isn't a violation of the laws of physics and something you can't rule out as implausible based on the observed past behavior of the entity responsible. If I told you that an operating system has just been caught doing that, would your first guess be Windows or Debian?
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    Debian itself I wouldn't worry about much, but Mac OS would be close to Windows. And I'd be more worried about malware than the OS. Especially phone malware.

ddevault 6y ago

You assume that Microsoft has the presumption of good will. They do not.

chris37879 6y ago

For me it's because I just don't trust Microsoft anymore. Whats stopping them from using their broad powers under their EULA from collecting information about any device on my network that will respond to the Windows 10 machine's request? The amount of telemetry they force you to accept just to use Windows 10 is unacceptable. If I want a local user account without the OS phoning home for anything other than Windows Update, I should be able to do that. Instead, on a default install of Windows 10 Pro, which I bought a license for, I get tons of preinstalled crapware / links to install said crapware, a barrage of attempts to convert my local user account to a Microsoft account, an antivirus tool that's so aggressive that some of my software development tools have had to include directions for whitelisting their cache directories, and just this persistent worry that Microsoft will push out the next update and break my PC or start collecting new data, or re-enabling things I've already disabled. My ideal Windows 10 setup would be basically Windows 7 + a wizard of 'Do you want this feature / telemetry' that actually respects my answers.

PeterStuer 6y ago

Trust is hard to gain and easy to lose. Rationally any device you allow unisolated on your network is a potential threat. Rationally you'd be more worried about infectious malicious packages or applications the user might have unknowingly installed and active than the base system/OS itself. Empathically people will tend to tar with a bigger brush, like banning all Windows machines of the network, or not allowing any Huawei devices etc. While these may not be 100% rational trade-offs, there are underpinnings in some if not all of these cases that can have some merit. The US lenience with regards to surveillance and their gagging laws, same for the Chinese etc. So once that trust is lost, you will be hard pressed to convince people otherwise. What measures if any they are willing/capable to implement in light of that lack of trust will of course be different from person to person. One person's 'extreme overreaction' is another person's 'healthy caution'. One person's 'Calculated Risk' will be another person's 'Callous Neglect'.

jnxx 6y ago

> Why do you believe Windows running on someone else's computer is a threat to your network? For example because it stores WiFi credentials without explicit permission, and even hides the passwords? https://superuser.com/questions/1498494/where-does-windows10-saves-wifi-login-password-for-automatic-wifi-login https://superuser.com/questions/1498494/where-does-windows10...