46 ms·

Amazon establishes new Counterfeit Crimes Unit

311 points by ssully 6y ago

verdverm 6y ago
I mentally added the word time in the middle of the domain name and chuckled. It would be great if they did that, show that they still have a bit of humanity left over there
7863949364 6y ago
They should start by investigating themselves for antitrust violations.
ComputerGuru 6y ago
They do this every six to twelve months: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19091852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19091852 It’s just platitudes so long as their interests are served by pretending the problem doesn’t exist.
- ourmandave 6y ago
  I thought it was a study committee to see how they can get a bigger cut.
- Zaheer 6y ago
  This goes beyond just words. Establishing a dedicated team to investigate / prosecute Counterfeiters is a solid step forward.
  - arkades 6y ago
    Until they start prosecuting people and putting up barriers to counterfeit sales, it is just words. They're slightly different words, but still.
starpilot 6y ago
I just bought some gym shorts from Target for $20. Amazon had some for the same price, but numerous reviews with photos showed people were getting fakes. Fuck that. Target of all places seems more curated than Amazon.
- boulos 6y ago
  > Target of all places seems more curated than Amazon. Isn’t this going to be true of any “pure” retailer? The nature of FBA and third-party sellers just means there will always be at least some percentage of fraud and so on that’s higher than “trick various people in the retailer to sell fake goods”. Particularly as it’s much easier for insiders at a retailer to steal from their employer (and then resell via whatever means), I think the utility for “put fake goods on the shelf” at a retail shop is basically zero. I dunno, maybe you can trick/bribe the person near the start of the supply chain, but it wouldn’t take long for returns to pile up and an investigation to find “Jim and Sally colluded to sell fake gym shorts”.
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    > Isn’t this going to be true of any “pure” retailer? No. First-party retailers don't generally commingle stock with other third-party retailers. They typically have few suppliers, often one supplier, for each good. That's for many reasons, but it also makes it easy for them to identify who sent them counterfeits. Amazon is discovering what old-fashioned retailers learned long ago: customers do not give a fuck who, ultimately, has injected the counterfeit. They will blame the retailer. If I was Wal-Mart I would be absolutely hammering this point to customers. I'd be running ads about "Shamazon". Tearful mothers whose child got sick. Teens who saved up for a game system or phone and got a block of wood. Grandparents who bought medical equipment and got a faulty knockoff. Everything dangerous, disgusting, outrageous or even just annoying. I'd be carpet-bombing every channel with ads amplifying the message that Amazon can't guarantee what you get. Wal-Mart aren't saints, but their historical success has rested heavily on an incredibly tight grip of their supply chain and logistics. They do actually know what they have on the shelf.
    - 6y ago
benologist 6y ago
I wonder if they will solve the mystery of how executives either didn't know, or didn't do anything about it, for so many years even as it was widely reported. It might have been more appropriate to use a federal investigative body and start with whatever misconduct, or deficit of attention, has been enabling the counterfeiters to thrive on Amazon for years.
rckoepke 6y ago
The categories of things that I've received counterfeit versions of on Amazon have been truly mind-blowing. It's been replacement HEPA filters, cat toys, even breakfast cereal. It's not just earphones/mics, batteries, usb cables, flash drives, extension cords, and other electronics. Who counterfeits breakfast cereal??? I've had this issue with both Quaker Oats and Raisin Bran. The scale of fraud is magnificent. And it really gaslights consumers; it took me forever to actually accept that I was eating an off-brand imitation of my favorite cereals. I do still buy from Amazon. The ease of returns still gives me confidence that I can decide after receiving an item whether the price:quality ratio is worth it. But not if I absolutely need it to conform to certain standards and I don't have the skills/tools to validate the performance myself (like HEPA filters). Then I tend to buy from somewhere with a more curated supply chain (Home Depot, direct from manufacturers website, etc).
- jbay808 6y ago
  My company got a counterfeit textbook. On the cover was the book we had ordered, about control theory. The printed pages were a veterinary textbook by a different publisher.
  - ponker 6y ago
    That, frankly, is downright pleasant compared to counterfeit food.
    - awinter-py 6y ago
      you say that now but you'll change your tune when future control theory only works on dogs
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    That must have been a hilarious return.
  - CobrastanJorji 6y ago
    I'm curious about the incentive that leads to this. If you're going to print and sell counterfeit textbooks, why not use the actual content? Surely nearly every copy with a random other book will be returned. Is it possible that they meant to include the right content, but they counterfeit lots of books and have low quality control? My best guess is that they can easily grab a copy of a book's cover online, but actually acquiring and scanning a copy of each book is cost prohibitive, so they just sell entirely fake ones and hope that they get at least some money out of it.
mtnGoat 6y ago
considering they make money either way, i feel like this could be kind of dubious and just lip service. i would have more faith if an uninvolved party was doing the work.
ikeboy 6y ago
When are they going to start suing those who file false claims of counterfeiting? Google started something similar last year when they sued someone who was abusing YouTube's DMCA system. https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/15/20915688/youtube-copyright-troll-lawsuit-settled-false-dmca-takedown-christopher-brady https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/15/20915688/youtube-copyrig... But despite widespread abuse of Amazon's IP reporting system, to date Amazon has not sued anyone for that as far as I know.
mjevans 6y ago
Having a chain of ownership list would be a great help with this. Track and report which company owned the item back to it's manufacture and who 'owned' the IP of the run. Even more ideally also the production time, etc.
- anonymousDan 6y ago
  Good shout. If only there were a technology to support this kind of usecase....
  - Vendan 6y ago
    Good news, there is! It's called a database. When an item comes in, tag it with a unique barcode and add a row to the database saying "Item X came from company Y in shipment Z" and then sue/penalize/whatever company Y when it's counterfeit.
    - somethingwitty1 6y ago
      This assumes it is really that simple. You are adding a manual, human process. Humans make mistakes. Humans can intentionally make mistakes. Barcodes fall off, get defaced, etc. Those barcodes, hardware and software require money and up-keep. The humans receiving the products also can make mistakes and return the "wrong" item that happens to look the same (this is a source of counterfeits, even at Walmart/Target). And then we get into the shipment chain. Counterfeit swaps happen during the transit of packages to the warehouse and to the receiver's home. This is a really, really hard problem. And to be able to do it in a way that doesn't substantially raise the prices of the products only complicates that more.
- r00fus 6y ago
  This goes against everything that makes Fulfilled by Amazon successful/dominant. Not expecting anything to change.
gwittel 6y ago
Are fake listings a problem? Absolutely. But is it the primary issue? I'm not so sure. It seems like Amazon is doing all sorts of things but not actually addressing the root -- inventory co-mingling + sketchy 3rd party sellers that can come back overnight. Simply ending inventory co-mingling would likely handle a substantial portion of counterfeits since Amazon is sourcing their stock through standard channels. Amazon knows this. There's probably cost models somewhere in HQ. But ending this would mean: slower delivery times, and Amazon would have to carry the inventory on their books. I'd gladly wait an extra day or two if I know the item I get is legit (just like pre FBA/3rd party days). Instead, Amazon is burning goodwill and cash on efforts like this one. If anything, Covid-19 has forced other retailers to up their online game. Its accelerated my spending shift away from Amazon as I'm tired of fraud. Fraudulent items can injure, poison, or even kill people. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll wait another day for that delivery.
- ikeboy 6y ago
  >Amazon is sourcing their stock through standard channels. This just isn't true. There's been plenty of lawsuits alleging that Amazon themselves sourced counterfeit product. Their supply chain for many products is not necessarily better than third party sellers.
  - the_pwner224 6y ago
    About 6 years ago I ordered a $150 graphing calculator from Amazon, 'Shipped and sold by Amazon' or whatever the actual phrase was, and iirc there were no 3rd-party sellers for the item. The calculator came in two versions with software differences as well as a different accent color on the hardware to differentiate. I ordered the one with the extra software but instead got the one with the cheaper color and firmware. I returned it for a replacement from Amazon and got the right one that time. It wasn't counterfeit (I don't think anyone is ripping off high-end TI calculators, and it also came with a license key for the computer software), but I believe it was intentionally incorrectly sold. It came in a blister pack and the paper insert inside plastic indicated it was the CAS model, but the calculator itself was the non-CAS model - in other words, aside from having the non-CAS calculator in the box, it was exactly identical to the CAS model as you would buy from a store. Maybe TI mixed up their stuff but I doubt that; by that time I had already heard of Amazon selling counterfeit items and as you said there have apparently been lawsuits for this. About a year later I had the exact same issue occur with another item - sold by Amazon, but fake, but got the right one after a return. Can't remember what it was though.
throwawayiionqz 6y ago
I ordered a well-known baby-bottom cream. The product gave her never-expanding rashes for a few days. Then I realized the color slightly differs from the same cream bought at the local pharmacy, and that many 1 star reviews also report knockoffs version of the cream. In some cases review pictures show that the packaging itself is clearly fake. I write a 1-star review explaining the above, and saying that the anxious parents are now in an unbearable situation after applied a fake, potentially harmful and untraceable product to their newborn bottom. The review does not respect community guidelines and won't be published.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  This sounds litigation ready!
  - ummonk 6y ago
    Second this - this needs to be litigated.
    - awakeasleep 6y ago
      How many hours a week would a person need to dedicate to starting a lawsuit about something like this? Anyone have experience? Even if a law firm would do 100% of the work & charge on contingency, I bet it still takes 100+ hours for the average joe to research and find the firm to do that.
      - BurningFrog 6y ago
        Ask a lawyer friend to refer you. They're pretty good at that. I imagine an initial 1/2 hour conversation will clarify a lot and cost nothing. If you don't have a lawyer friend, find a friend who does.
  - jnwatson 6y ago
    The copied brand owner would likely be very interested. That's direct harm to the brand.
myself248 6y ago
Foxes announce plan to investigate threats to henhouse. Film at 11.
awinter-py 6y ago
nos custodimus quod lingus
ckastner 6y ago
I've said this before: they should look at how the finance industry deals / has been dealing with bad actors for decades before they engage in a business relationship with a client. Assign every vendor some risk category based on their profile, for example: projected annual revenue, country of incorporation, products sold. A mom-and-pop store located somewhere in Iowa selling pillow cases would probably be low-risk, there's not much you need to do. A vendor selling USB cables out of China is probably very-high-risk. These need deep vetting. As in: show up in an office, bring along your lawyer, show us documentation on the working conditions in your factory, sign an agreement to let us audit your factory, etc. Now, banks don't do this (at least, as far as I'm aware), but to play the devil's advocate: just imagine if Amazon asked very-high-risk vendors to post collateral before selling. If they get caught, the collateral is used to compensate victims. That would take out the incentive to sell counterfeits in the first place.
- vageli 6y ago
  > Now, banks don't do this (at least, as far as I'm aware), but to play the devil's advocate: just imagine if Amazon asked very-high-risk vendors to post collateral before selling. If they get caught, the collateral is used to compensate victims. Requiring merchants to be bonded for entry into high-risk categories sounds like a great idea! I know they already have hurdles for entry into protected categories like vitamins but adding a financial hurdle seems sensible for certain categories or volume.
  - donmcronald 6y ago
    In theory I think requiring a cash bond could improve many distribution systems, but the reality is that these big tech companies are so terrible at moderation and curation that we'd end up with tons of people having their bonds seized for no reason. Then, since there's actual money involved, those people might actually have some recourse, so it'll never happen IMO.
- dublinben 6y ago
  Speaking of incentives, why would Amazon want to place such onerous restrictions on their suppliers? Are consumers supposed to demand this? Would regulation require it? Amazon's success at being "the everything store" is fundamentally opposed to vetting their suppliers like this.
Finnucane 6y ago
I don't really get the attitude of 'I don't care about counterfeits because it's easy to make returns.' I mean, you know what's even easier than that? Ordering from a more trustworthy vendor and not having to make returns. Getting the right thing the first time! If I have to go to the post office to send a thing back, I might as well just go to an actual store and buy the thing myself.
olafure 6y ago
I'd really like them to establish a "counterfeit reviews" unit too. Many years ago their review system was one of their businesses advantages. Many users and fairly honest reviews. Now it's rife with fake and bought reviews, rendering it useless.
- Wingman4l7 6y ago
  I recently took a look at the top 20 reviewers, and based on some personal knowledge of what the items that buy 5-star reviews are in the current market, at least 3 of the top 20 people are doing it. These are people with thousands of reviews. It's rotten all the way to the top.
bradstewart 6y ago
Is it safe to assume "Amazon Basics" products are not counterfeit? Obvious clones of products from other brands, but quality-controlled by Amazon?
- PaulWaldman 6y ago
  I was thinking that too. Unless someone claimed they are just reselling their AmazonBasics items that were previously purchased from Amazon.
- dazc 6y ago
  Maybe it's all a cunning plan?
pps43 6y ago
Is there a way to contact this new unit? I have a bunch of links to clearly counterfeit products on Amazon. But something tells me that they might not be particularly interested.
viburnum 6y ago
You can’t just add anti-fraud sprinkles on top. The rampant fraud is built into Amazon.com’s business model. Monitoring product quality is hard. All the little shopkeepers and buying managers were actually doing work, work that isn’t easily automated. Amazon’s recreating the problems of central planning that the USSR had in product quality.
luizb 6y ago
they should start by investigating the "Amazon Basics" brand
legitster 6y ago
I have yet to have an issue with a counterfeit - my main problem are the pages and pages of crappy listings. I was trying to find a child's bike helmet the other day, and it's hundreds of brands I have never heard of, with no safety information, and all look virtually indistinguishable from each other except for weird logos plastered on them. (Kamugo? Galf? LERUJIFL? Turboske? OUWOER? LANOVAGEAR?) I ended up driving to Wal-Mart for a Bell helmet that cost the same.
esaym 6y ago
No joke, if I need food items from online, I try to go with ebay before amazon. I trust old/nearly expired or half opened boxes from some obscure ebay user before getting anything editable from amazon. If people are counterfeiting oral-b toothbrushes, I'm sure they are counterfeiting vanilla extract and gourmet chocolate.
panitaxx 6y ago
I started buying clothing from the brand itself (eg shoes directly from adidas, etc). Some appliances also direct. I sometimes buy food from Walmart but only if they are the retailer (they don't seem to commingle inventories). I bought some ssd directly from Samsung site. Another problem with amazon is the sheer quantity of not-counterfeit but cheap unknown knockoffs. It seems more like an expensive AliExpress.
- cdubzzz 6y ago
  I haven’t bought from Amazon in years. A few weeks ago my toddler left a rubber ball in our waffle maker and we didn’t realize it before turning it on and melting the thing. It ruined the non-stick coating. After a bit of research I found a new waffle maker to buy. The place I found it had an Amazon affiliate link so I clicked through to price check — $94. Then I checked the manufacturer’s site — $69.99. Ordered it on Monday and it’ll get here tomorrow, free shipping. This is a pretty common story for me. I almost always check Amazon out of curiosity and most of the time it’s more expensive then other options even when factoring in free shipping. I really don’t get what the upside is supposed to be.
- fomine3 6y ago
  Amazon becomes an expensive AliExpress but it also has stock on near warehouse rather than Shenzen. Sometimes useful.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
At least five years too late, but I'll take it.
Trias11 6y ago
Windows dressing. It's not in Amazon's interests to reduce business by eliminating counterfeit products, fake reviews, etc.. Real solution is for government to hold platform responsible for peddling fakes and fraud to customers.
heavyset_go 6y ago
Forgive me if I think this is both not enough and a little too late. Too many incentives are aligned within Amazon to continue to ignore counterfeits sold on their marketplace, and the only way I'll believe that such a unit is effective against such incentives is with independent audits. If this was an honest attempt to clean house, surely Amazon would welcome audits with open arms.
CommanderData 6y ago
Are they going to tackle the surge in poor quality face masks claiming to meet FDA or European standards?
codezero 6y ago
The cynic in me assumes they are doing this so they can make Amazon Basics versions of popular counterfeited money and remove the angle that counterfeiters are using...
a0zU 6y ago
I highly doubt that Amazon's 'counterfeit crimes unit' will be anything more than just an advertising stunt and a token to use in court if accused of not trying to stop counterfeits.
bllguo 6y ago
I have never had counterfeit issues on amazon and always find these threads bewildering. I buy almost everything I can't get from my local grocery store from them. I can't tell whether I'm improbably lucky or if I'm part of a silent majority. Claims of things like counterfeit cereal (come on, really want to see some actual proof here) tilt me towards the latter, though.
- phaus 6y ago
  I bought a "Lenovo" USB hub that was a shitty knockoff, the manufacturer claimed they had licensed the Lenovo brand. The listing never mentioned that it wasn't an authentic Lenovo device, but the packaging did. The device was poorly made and just flat out didn't work. I think electronics and luxury items have a higher chance of being counterfeit. Obviously most people are getting legitimate goods, otherwise Amazon wouldn't exist. I read reviews before I purchase anything expensive though, if I see several people claiming the same product from the same vendor is a counterfeit, I find another vendor or another item.
- Amezarak 6y ago
  I was reselling Monster energy drinks in my office. I tried ordering some from Amazon, since the bigger packs are more readily available, and for lower prices, allowing me to sell cans for a cheaper per-unit price. The very first pack I got was clearly counterfeit. The cans were subtly different both in appearance and etching. A brave volunteer who tried some also reported it tasted off. If they're counterfeiting energy drinks, I fully believe they're doing cereal too.
  - p1necone 6y ago
    I wonder if the "silent majority" is just all the people sufficiently fooled by the counterfeiting?
    - Amezarak 6y ago
      I think there's probably three factors: - the majority of brand name items on Amazon aren't counterfeits. It's a big problem, but it's also a big platform, with plenty of real stock and genuine sellers. - not all items have counterfeits. Some brands and types of products are under enough control or aren't popular/visible/profitable enough to be counterfeited. And some are just just brands anyway - nobody is counterfeiting the no-name junk brand USB cables that Amazon sells from fly-by-night operations. Plenty of people actually buy this stuff and while they might or might not get a poor quality product that might or might not adhere to environmental or consumer protection laws, it isn't a counterfeit and they might be happy. - some counterfeits are good enough. For exampel, you're unlikely to ever notice you got a counterfeit book unless they do a bad job (apparently pretty common - I've only gotten a couple I was suspicious of, but I am very careful about buying books, but there are really low-effort garbage counterfeits produced out there that are clearly fake, up to Wikipedia printouts.) Even when they make the book out of cheaper paper or the book is badly printed, you may not have the familiarity with the publisher to know that it's a counterfeit and not just that the publisher doesn't suck.
stevespang 6y ago
First thing that new counterfeit crimes unit is go after Amazon itself - - for all the cheap-ass Chinese garbage they allow on Amazon and then refuse to honor returns and guarantees . . .
dilandau 6y ago
Amazon is just a digital flea market, with all that the epithet entails. Shit-quality Chinesium stuff, counterfeit everything, fake customers, fake everything except the price. All amzn cares about is dominance, and they are winning unfortunately.
czbond 6y ago
How will they be able to police this - won't it be like fake accounts on Facebook or Twitter? Very easy to setup a new account?
abootstrapper 6y ago
Last two items I ordered online I skipped Amazon and ordered from the manufacturer to avoid getting stuck with a counterfeit. I'm considering dropping my Prime membership if this keeps up.
rfwhyte 6y ago
And absolutely nothing will change. In fact the volume of counterfeit goods, fake reviews and scams on Amazon and other marketplaces will only increase. Its honestly not even really Amazon's problem at this point, its more that there is an entire Chinese industry devoted to counterfeiting and scamming, with literally hundreds of thousands of intelligent, capable people spending their lives looking for ways to make a dishonest buck. Amazon is essentially putting a band-aid on a leaking damn at this point. Until China actually puts strong IP protections in place (They never will) there's really not much western companies can do about it beyond paying lip service to a problem they know they can't actually solve.

311 points by ssully 6y ago

I mentally added the word time in the middle of the domain name and chuckled. It would be great if they did that, show that they still have a bit of humanity left over there

7863949364 6y ago

They should start by investigating themselves for antitrust violations.

ComputerGuru 6y ago

They do this every six to twelve months: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19091852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19091852 It’s just platitudes so long as their interests are served by pretending the problem doesn’t exist.

ourmandave 6y ago
I thought it was a study committee to see how they can get a bigger cut.
Zaheer 6y ago
This goes beyond just words. Establishing a dedicated team to investigate / prosecute Counterfeiters is a solid step forward.
- arkades 6y ago
  Until they start prosecuting people and putting up barriers to counterfeit sales, it is just words. They're slightly different words, but still.

starpilot 6y ago

I just bought some gym shorts from Target for $20. Amazon had some for the same price, but numerous reviews with photos showed people were getting fakes. Fuck that. Target of all places seems more curated than Amazon.

boulos 6y ago
> Target of all places seems more curated than Amazon. Isn’t this going to be true of any “pure” retailer? The nature of FBA and third-party sellers just means there will always be at least some percentage of fraud and so on that’s higher than “trick various people in the retailer to sell fake goods”. Particularly as it’s much easier for insiders at a retailer to steal from their employer (and then resell via whatever means), I think the utility for “put fake goods on the shelf” at a retail shop is basically zero. I dunno, maybe you can trick/bribe the person near the start of the supply chain, but it wouldn’t take long for returns to pile up and an investigation to find “Jim and Sally colluded to sell fake gym shorts”.
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  > Isn’t this going to be true of any “pure” retailer? No. First-party retailers don't generally commingle stock with other third-party retailers. They typically have few suppliers, often one supplier, for each good. That's for many reasons, but it also makes it easy for them to identify who sent them counterfeits. Amazon is discovering what old-fashioned retailers learned long ago: customers do not give a fuck who, ultimately, has injected the counterfeit. They will blame the retailer. If I was Wal-Mart I would be absolutely hammering this point to customers. I'd be running ads about "Shamazon". Tearful mothers whose child got sick. Teens who saved up for a game system or phone and got a block of wood. Grandparents who bought medical equipment and got a faulty knockoff. Everything dangerous, disgusting, outrageous or even just annoying. I'd be carpet-bombing every channel with ads amplifying the message that Amazon can't guarantee what you get. Wal-Mart aren't saints, but their historical success has rested heavily on an incredibly tight grip of their supply chain and logistics. They do actually know what they have on the shelf.
  - 6y ago

benologist 6y ago

I wonder if they will solve the mystery of how executives either didn't know, or didn't do anything about it, for so many years even as it was widely reported. It might have been more appropriate to use a federal investigative body and start with whatever misconduct, or deficit of attention, has been enabling the counterfeiters to thrive on Amazon for years.

rckoepke 6y ago

The categories of things that I've received counterfeit versions of on Amazon have been truly mind-blowing. It's been replacement HEPA filters, cat toys, even breakfast cereal. It's not just earphones/mics, batteries, usb cables, flash drives, extension cords, and other electronics. Who counterfeits breakfast cereal??? I've had this issue with both Quaker Oats and Raisin Bran. The scale of fraud is magnificent. And it really gaslights consumers; it took me forever to actually accept that I was eating an off-brand imitation of my favorite cereals. I do still buy from Amazon. The ease of returns still gives me confidence that I can decide after receiving an item whether the price:quality ratio is worth it. But not if I absolutely need it to conform to certain standards and I don't have the skills/tools to validate the performance myself (like HEPA filters). Then I tend to buy from somewhere with a more curated supply chain (Home Depot, direct from manufacturers website, etc).

jbay808 6y ago
My company got a counterfeit textbook. On the cover was the book we had ordered, about control theory. The printed pages were a veterinary textbook by a different publisher.
- ponker 6y ago
  That, frankly, is downright pleasant compared to counterfeit food.
  - awinter-py 6y ago
    you say that now but you'll change your tune when future control theory only works on dogs
- LegitShady 6y ago
  That must have been a hilarious return.
- CobrastanJorji 6y ago
  I'm curious about the incentive that leads to this. If you're going to print and sell counterfeit textbooks, why not use the actual content? Surely nearly every copy with a random other book will be returned. Is it possible that they meant to include the right content, but they counterfeit lots of books and have low quality control? My best guess is that they can easily grab a copy of a book's cover online, but actually acquiring and scanning a copy of each book is cost prohibitive, so they just sell entirely fake ones and hope that they get at least some money out of it.

mtnGoat 6y ago

considering they make money either way, i feel like this could be kind of dubious and just lip service. i would have more faith if an uninvolved party was doing the work.

ikeboy 6y ago

When are they going to start suing those who file false claims of counterfeiting? Google started something similar last year when they sued someone who was abusing YouTube's DMCA system. https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/15/20915688/youtube-copyright-troll-lawsuit-settled-false-dmca-takedown-christopher-brady https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/15/20915688/youtube-copyrig... But despite widespread abuse of Amazon's IP reporting system, to date Amazon has not sued anyone for that as far as I know.

mjevans 6y ago

Having a chain of ownership list would be a great help with this. Track and report which company owned the item back to it's manufacture and who 'owned' the IP of the run. Even more ideally also the production time, etc.

anonymousDan 6y ago
Good shout. If only there were a technology to support this kind of usecase....
- Vendan 6y ago
  Good news, there is! It's called a database. When an item comes in, tag it with a unique barcode and add a row to the database saying "Item X came from company Y in shipment Z" and then sue/penalize/whatever company Y when it's counterfeit.
  - somethingwitty1 6y ago
    This assumes it is really that simple. You are adding a manual, human process. Humans make mistakes. Humans can intentionally make mistakes. Barcodes fall off, get defaced, etc. Those barcodes, hardware and software require money and up-keep. The humans receiving the products also can make mistakes and return the "wrong" item that happens to look the same (this is a source of counterfeits, even at Walmart/Target). And then we get into the shipment chain. Counterfeit swaps happen during the transit of packages to the warehouse and to the receiver's home. This is a really, really hard problem. And to be able to do it in a way that doesn't substantially raise the prices of the products only complicates that more.
r00fus 6y ago
This goes against everything that makes Fulfilled by Amazon successful/dominant. Not expecting anything to change.

gwittel 6y ago

Are fake listings a problem? Absolutely. But is it the primary issue? I'm not so sure. It seems like Amazon is doing all sorts of things but not actually addressing the root -- inventory co-mingling + sketchy 3rd party sellers that can come back overnight. Simply ending inventory co-mingling would likely handle a substantial portion of counterfeits since Amazon is sourcing their stock through standard channels. Amazon knows this. There's probably cost models somewhere in HQ. But ending this would mean: slower delivery times, and Amazon would have to carry the inventory on their books. I'd gladly wait an extra day or two if I know the item I get is legit (just like pre FBA/3rd party days). Instead, Amazon is burning goodwill and cash on efforts like this one. If anything, Covid-19 has forced other retailers to up their online game. Its accelerated my spending shift away from Amazon as I'm tired of fraud. Fraudulent items can injure, poison, or even kill people. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll wait another day for that delivery.

ikeboy 6y ago
>Amazon is sourcing their stock through standard channels. This just isn't true. There's been plenty of lawsuits alleging that Amazon themselves sourced counterfeit product. Their supply chain for many products is not necessarily better than third party sellers.
- the_pwner224 6y ago
  About 6 years ago I ordered a $150 graphing calculator from Amazon, 'Shipped and sold by Amazon' or whatever the actual phrase was, and iirc there were no 3rd-party sellers for the item. The calculator came in two versions with software differences as well as a different accent color on the hardware to differentiate. I ordered the one with the extra software but instead got the one with the cheaper color and firmware. I returned it for a replacement from Amazon and got the right one that time. It wasn't counterfeit (I don't think anyone is ripping off high-end TI calculators, and it also came with a license key for the computer software), but I believe it was intentionally incorrectly sold. It came in a blister pack and the paper insert inside plastic indicated it was the CAS model, but the calculator itself was the non-CAS model - in other words, aside from having the non-CAS calculator in the box, it was exactly identical to the CAS model as you would buy from a store. Maybe TI mixed up their stuff but I doubt that; by that time I had already heard of Amazon selling counterfeit items and as you said there have apparently been lawsuits for this. About a year later I had the exact same issue occur with another item - sold by Amazon, but fake, but got the right one after a return. Can't remember what it was though.

throwawayiionqz 6y ago

I ordered a well-known baby-bottom cream. The product gave her never-expanding rashes for a few days. Then I realized the color slightly differs from the same cream bought at the local pharmacy, and that many 1 star reviews also report knockoffs version of the cream. In some cases review pictures show that the packaging itself is clearly fake. I write a 1-star review explaining the above, and saying that the anxious parents are now in an unbearable situation after applied a fake, potentially harmful and untraceable product to their newborn bottom. The review does not respect community guidelines and won't be published.

BurningFrog 6y ago
This sounds litigation ready!
- ummonk 6y ago
  Second this - this needs to be litigated.
  - awakeasleep 6y ago
    How many hours a week would a person need to dedicate to starting a lawsuit about something like this? Anyone have experience? Even if a law firm would do 100% of the work & charge on contingency, I bet it still takes 100+ hours for the average joe to research and find the firm to do that.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      Ask a lawyer friend to refer you. They're pretty good at that. I imagine an initial 1/2 hour conversation will clarify a lot and cost nothing. If you don't have a lawyer friend, find a friend who does.
- jnwatson 6y ago
  The copied brand owner would likely be very interested. That's direct harm to the brand.

myself248 6y ago

Foxes announce plan to investigate threats to henhouse. Film at 11.

awinter-py 6y ago

nos custodimus quod lingus

ckastner 6y ago

I've said this before: they should look at how the finance industry deals / has been dealing with bad actors for decades before they engage in a business relationship with a client. Assign every vendor some risk category based on their profile, for example: projected annual revenue, country of incorporation, products sold. A mom-and-pop store located somewhere in Iowa selling pillow cases would probably be low-risk, there's not much you need to do. A vendor selling USB cables out of China is probably very-high-risk. These need deep vetting. As in: show up in an office, bring along your lawyer, show us documentation on the working conditions in your factory, sign an agreement to let us audit your factory, etc. Now, banks don't do this (at least, as far as I'm aware), but to play the devil's advocate: just imagine if Amazon asked very-high-risk vendors to post collateral before selling. If they get caught, the collateral is used to compensate victims. That would take out the incentive to sell counterfeits in the first place.

vageli 6y ago
> Now, banks don't do this (at least, as far as I'm aware), but to play the devil's advocate: just imagine if Amazon asked very-high-risk vendors to post collateral before selling. If they get caught, the collateral is used to compensate victims. Requiring merchants to be bonded for entry into high-risk categories sounds like a great idea! I know they already have hurdles for entry into protected categories like vitamins but adding a financial hurdle seems sensible for certain categories or volume.
- donmcronald 6y ago
  In theory I think requiring a cash bond could improve many distribution systems, but the reality is that these big tech companies are so terrible at moderation and curation that we'd end up with tons of people having their bonds seized for no reason. Then, since there's actual money involved, those people might actually have some recourse, so it'll never happen IMO.
dublinben 6y ago
Speaking of incentives, why would Amazon want to place such onerous restrictions on their suppliers? Are consumers supposed to demand this? Would regulation require it? Amazon's success at being "the everything store" is fundamentally opposed to vetting their suppliers like this.

Finnucane 6y ago

I don't really get the attitude of 'I don't care about counterfeits because it's easy to make returns.' I mean, you know what's even easier than that? Ordering from a more trustworthy vendor and not having to make returns. Getting the right thing the first time! If I have to go to the post office to send a thing back, I might as well just go to an actual store and buy the thing myself.

olafure 6y ago

I'd really like them to establish a "counterfeit reviews" unit too. Many years ago their review system was one of their businesses advantages. Many users and fairly honest reviews. Now it's rife with fake and bought reviews, rendering it useless.

Wingman4l7 6y ago
I recently took a look at the top 20 reviewers, and based on some personal knowledge of what the items that buy 5-star reviews are in the current market, at least 3 of the top 20 people are doing it. These are people with thousands of reviews. It's rotten all the way to the top.

bradstewart 6y ago

Is it safe to assume "Amazon Basics" products are not counterfeit? Obvious clones of products from other brands, but quality-controlled by Amazon?

PaulWaldman 6y ago
I was thinking that too. Unless someone claimed they are just reselling their AmazonBasics items that were previously purchased from Amazon.
dazc 6y ago
Maybe it's all a cunning plan?

pps43 6y ago

Is there a way to contact this new unit? I have a bunch of links to clearly counterfeit products on Amazon. But something tells me that they might not be particularly interested.

viburnum 6y ago

You can’t just add anti-fraud sprinkles on top. The rampant fraud is built into Amazon.com’s business model. Monitoring product quality is hard. All the little shopkeepers and buying managers were actually doing work, work that isn’t easily automated. Amazon’s recreating the problems of central planning that the USSR had in product quality.

luizb 6y ago

they should start by investigating the "Amazon Basics" brand

legitster 6y ago

I have yet to have an issue with a counterfeit - my main problem are the pages and pages of crappy listings. I was trying to find a child's bike helmet the other day, and it's hundreds of brands I have never heard of, with no safety information, and all look virtually indistinguishable from each other except for weird logos plastered on them. (Kamugo? Galf? LERUJIFL? Turboske? OUWOER? LANOVAGEAR?) I ended up driving to Wal-Mart for a Bell helmet that cost the same.

esaym 6y ago

No joke, if I need food items from online, I try to go with ebay before amazon. I trust old/nearly expired or half opened boxes from some obscure ebay user before getting anything editable from amazon. If people are counterfeiting oral-b toothbrushes, I'm sure they are counterfeiting vanilla extract and gourmet chocolate.

panitaxx 6y ago

I started buying clothing from the brand itself (eg shoes directly from adidas, etc). Some appliances also direct. I sometimes buy food from Walmart but only if they are the retailer (they don't seem to commingle inventories). I bought some ssd directly from Samsung site. Another problem with amazon is the sheer quantity of not-counterfeit but cheap unknown knockoffs. It seems more like an expensive AliExpress.

cdubzzz 6y ago
I haven’t bought from Amazon in years. A few weeks ago my toddler left a rubber ball in our waffle maker and we didn’t realize it before turning it on and melting the thing. It ruined the non-stick coating. After a bit of research I found a new waffle maker to buy. The place I found it had an Amazon affiliate link so I clicked through to price check — $94. Then I checked the manufacturer’s site — $69.99. Ordered it on Monday and it’ll get here tomorrow, free shipping. This is a pretty common story for me. I almost always check Amazon out of curiosity and most of the time it’s more expensive then other options even when factoring in free shipping. I really don’t get what the upside is supposed to be.
fomine3 6y ago
Amazon becomes an expensive AliExpress but it also has stock on near warehouse rather than Shenzen. Sometimes useful.

dreamcompiler 6y ago

At least five years too late, but I'll take it.

Trias11 6y ago

Windows dressing. It's not in Amazon's interests to reduce business by eliminating counterfeit products, fake reviews, etc.. Real solution is for government to hold platform responsible for peddling fakes and fraud to customers.

heavyset_go 6y ago

Forgive me if I think this is both not enough and a little too late. Too many incentives are aligned within Amazon to continue to ignore counterfeits sold on their marketplace, and the only way I'll believe that such a unit is effective against such incentives is with independent audits. If this was an honest attempt to clean house, surely Amazon would welcome audits with open arms.

CommanderData 6y ago

Are they going to tackle the surge in poor quality face masks claiming to meet FDA or European standards?

codezero 6y ago

The cynic in me assumes they are doing this so they can make Amazon Basics versions of popular counterfeited money and remove the angle that counterfeiters are using...

a0zU 6y ago

I highly doubt that Amazon's 'counterfeit crimes unit' will be anything more than just an advertising stunt and a token to use in court if accused of not trying to stop counterfeits.

bllguo 6y ago

I have never had counterfeit issues on amazon and always find these threads bewildering. I buy almost everything I can't get from my local grocery store from them. I can't tell whether I'm improbably lucky or if I'm part of a silent majority. Claims of things like counterfeit cereal (come on, really want to see some actual proof here) tilt me towards the latter, though.

phaus 6y ago
I bought a "Lenovo" USB hub that was a shitty knockoff, the manufacturer claimed they had licensed the Lenovo brand. The listing never mentioned that it wasn't an authentic Lenovo device, but the packaging did. The device was poorly made and just flat out didn't work. I think electronics and luxury items have a higher chance of being counterfeit. Obviously most people are getting legitimate goods, otherwise Amazon wouldn't exist. I read reviews before I purchase anything expensive though, if I see several people claiming the same product from the same vendor is a counterfeit, I find another vendor or another item.
Amezarak 6y ago
I was reselling Monster energy drinks in my office. I tried ordering some from Amazon, since the bigger packs are more readily available, and for lower prices, allowing me to sell cans for a cheaper per-unit price. The very first pack I got was clearly counterfeit. The cans were subtly different both in appearance and etching. A brave volunteer who tried some also reported it tasted off. If they're counterfeiting energy drinks, I fully believe they're doing cereal too.
- p1necone 6y ago
  I wonder if the "silent majority" is just all the people sufficiently fooled by the counterfeiting?
  - Amezarak 6y ago
    I think there's probably three factors: - the majority of brand name items on Amazon aren't counterfeits. It's a big problem, but it's also a big platform, with plenty of real stock and genuine sellers. - not all items have counterfeits. Some brands and types of products are under enough control or aren't popular/visible/profitable enough to be counterfeited. And some are just just brands anyway - nobody is counterfeiting the no-name junk brand USB cables that Amazon sells from fly-by-night operations. Plenty of people actually buy this stuff and while they might or might not get a poor quality product that might or might not adhere to environmental or consumer protection laws, it isn't a counterfeit and they might be happy. - some counterfeits are good enough. For exampel, you're unlikely to ever notice you got a counterfeit book unless they do a bad job (apparently pretty common - I've only gotten a couple I was suspicious of, but I am very careful about buying books, but there are really low-effort garbage counterfeits produced out there that are clearly fake, up to Wikipedia printouts.) Even when they make the book out of cheaper paper or the book is badly printed, you may not have the familiarity with the publisher to know that it's a counterfeit and not just that the publisher doesn't suck.

stevespang 6y ago

First thing that new counterfeit crimes unit is go after Amazon itself - - for all the cheap-ass Chinese garbage they allow on Amazon and then refuse to honor returns and guarantees . . .

dilandau 6y ago

Amazon is just a digital flea market, with all that the epithet entails. Shit-quality Chinesium stuff, counterfeit everything, fake customers, fake everything except the price. All amzn cares about is dominance, and they are winning unfortunately.

czbond 6y ago

How will they be able to police this - won't it be like fake accounts on Facebook or Twitter? Very easy to setup a new account?

abootstrapper 6y ago

Last two items I ordered online I skipped Amazon and ordered from the manufacturer to avoid getting stuck with a counterfeit. I'm considering dropping my Prime membership if this keeps up.

rfwhyte 6y ago

And absolutely nothing will change. In fact the volume of counterfeit goods, fake reviews and scams on Amazon and other marketplaces will only increase. Its honestly not even really Amazon's problem at this point, its more that there is an entire Chinese industry devoted to counterfeiting and scamming, with literally hundreds of thousands of intelligent, capable people spending their lives looking for ways to make a dishonest buck. Amazon is essentially putting a band-aid on a leaking damn at this point. Until China actually puts strong IP protections in place (They never will) there's really not much western companies can do about it beyond paying lip service to a problem they know they can't actually solve.