5 ms·

I'm so curious. Why do you care so much about Microsoft telemetry? What data do you think they will exfiltrate that's so important that you go through the effo

by Jonnax 6y ago

I'm so curious. Why do you care so much about Microsoft telemetry? What data do you think they will exfiltrate that's so important that you go through the effort of setting of VMs and whitelisting? Do you ban your family from using social media as well due to data collection?

cycloptic 6y ago
If it's really not that important then perhaps they could afford to stop doing it?
speeder 6y ago
I am not OP. But an example that I once used to explain to my wife why I don't trust TikTok and whatnot: Some time ago (I obviously won't say when) we interacted with a person, that had a bounty on his head, setup by Boko Haram, and people DID tried to kill him before. What if for example we had filmed him and that information leaked or got intercepted? Me, and my wife, have no enemies, done nothing illegal, and so on, nothing to hide personally, but about other people we interact with? What if some day a friend on internet, maybe a gaming buddy, tells me a important secret out of the blue because he needs urgent help, and that secret gets intercepted?
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  I want to make a similar point. Suppose you will forevermore remain a boring person who never has anything to hide. So you knowingly use spyware, because you're an open book. That enables common software to be spyware. If people are willing to use it knowing full well what it is, it continues to exist and be popular. Then people who do need privacy for legitimate reasons don't realize that, or don't have any good alternatives because the better options are niche and make them stick out like a sore thumb. And then dissidents get killed. Don't get dissidents killed. Just Say No to The Cloud.
simion314 6y ago
Not OC but for example for me I won't like that a list of all my files,app or urls I visited to be saved and stored somewhere. Telemetry should always be opt-in or ask the user (we had cases where for example people were recorded by mistake and the conversations were send to contractors/developers without the user knowing)
squarefoot 6y ago
The point is that the family might actually want to upload their stuff to the social network, while using an OS and associated software doesn't and should never translate into surrendering all use and other personal data. Would you find comfortable if while eating at the restaurant with your SO, a waiter sat at next table constantly staring at you two, and taking notes on what you eat, how you do it, in how much time and how much you appear to have enjoyed it, possibly also by analyzing your words? Stupid example maybe, but that would be just one of the many exact equivalents in real life. Don't tell that to toilet manufacturers:)
tejtm 6y ago
Why do you care about some random pickpocket going through your wallet? It is not like they are keeping your wallet...
badrabbit 6y ago
It's called consent. No one likes being stalked or their will violated. A company that does not think much of your wishes and desires will cause you harm when they have to. What can be used against you, will be used against you.
cm2187 6y ago
Why do you have a door on your bathroom?
- usr1106 6y ago
  Rhetorical question I know..., but I cannot resist to add 2 observations I made in the past - The Finnish army did not have doors at their toilets before they got a female defense minister who obviously shocked by that practice ordered that doors need to be installed. - In 2008 I visited New York City while suffering from stomach problems (We had bought the tickets months before.) While strolling around near Washington square I urgently needed to visit a toilet. I run to Washington Square and into the public restrooms there, to make the shocking discovery that there were no toilet cabins. It was just a big room with several toilet bowls and of course I was not alone. But there was no choice: It's the pants or the (semi-) public toilet bowl. (It remained unclear whether the setup was a result of vandalism or a prevention of vandalism or what) I'm neither Finnish nor American and I found both learnings pretty shocking. But obviously it's just a cultural thing what is shocking and what not. That said I am not happy that spying on users, whether its Android apps or Microsoft telemetry is seen as culturally acceptable instead of shocking by a majority of the public today.
PeterStuer 6y ago
>I'm so curious. Why do you care so much about Microsoft telemetry? You can be curious, but it's not on the OP to have to argue why he cares. Microsoft should not exfiltrate anything without asking for explicit permission, and honor a blanket refusal without exception. That the OP has to go through extreme countermeasures to prevent this leeching is unacceptable. >Do you ban your family from using social media as well due to data collection? This logical fallacy rhetoric is known as a whataboutism [1](an attempt to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  Actually, I think it's a reasonable question as to why I care so much. I'd like to say I have a rational justification based on risk/reward analysis, but I don't have enough information or time to really do that. Honestly, it's more visceral. They repeatedly try to deceive people to pry away their private information. I want it to stop, and (probably to my discredit) I have strongly vengeful fantasies against the perps.
  - inetknght 6y ago
    Reasonable, arguably. Let me throw some shade though: > "Do you want to eat some cake?" > "No" That's a very reasonable question and answer. > "Why don't you want some cake?" You might think it's reasonable to ask why someone doesn't want cake. I think it's prying. The first time it's asked, okay, fine. > "Would you want some cake if it was chocolate?" You're still asking about cake when the person said no. > "Do you not like sprinkles?" Why are you trying to conflate sprinkles with cake? > "I can help you eat it better if understood why you didn't want it." Seriously. You're building a pattern of abuse here. "No" is a complete answer for permission. Trying to get around that "no" is malicious and abusive.
    - pierrebai 6y ago
      Your answer aligns with pretty much all the others. They have in common reprhasing the original situation or questions in extreme way possible. Cake is a personal taste. Are technical choices a question of taste. Your arguing against debates and technical discussions. It's telling that many examples given were using video feed or pickpockets as an analogy to telemetry. These are not interesting explanations. Going to extreme arguments is not illuminating.
probably_wrong 6y ago
I think you are coming to this point from the wrong angle: if the OP thinks (like I do) that telemetry itself is an invasion of privacy, which data is sent is irrelevant. Asking "what data do you think they will exfiltrate?" assumes that the only reason to oppose telemetry is "they might see something I want to keep hidden". But, as it's often said when it comes to other people attempting to cross your personal boundaries, "'No' is a complete answer".
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > as it's often said when it comes to other people attempting to cross your personal boundaries, "'No' is a complete answer". I love that, so important! Have people seen the Tea consent video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    Hmm. That's a cute way to talk through the ideas. But if someone asked for actual tea, then decided they just didn't want it, it would be okay to be a little pushy. Not hugely pushy, but notably more than with 'tea'.
    - bergstromm466 6y ago
      > be a little pushy Eh? Why would that be ok? I think it's worth asking them why they don't want it anymore. If they continue to say no, do you really think it is ok to start pouring it down their throat? Consent can be revoked at any point in time. For what it's worth I think most cultures today are crap at consent. I think many of us are victim to a pre-#MeToo culture where sexual harrasment was somewhat more socially 'acceptable' or 'accepted' [1][2]. I think of the memes of women who seem uncomfortable when Biden touches them. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk talks about his desire for a 'trauma-conscious' society. To me there is no denying that often we have been hurt, and that there is not enough support for many people out there. I believe we don't get the support that we would need to heal from these things. Walking around hurt and unhealed is unfortunately the norm. > That's a cute way to talk through the ideas Rape and sexual assualt are very common, so I think this video is more than 'cute'; it's essential. I hope we start showing this to kids at a younger age, to help them grow boundaries early on. This also concerns consent for non-sexual contact such as hugs, or just any other type of physical contact with another person. [1] women: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoP8VpbpYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoP8VpbpYI [2] men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
Give me an always-on camera in your toilets. Blur your face if you wish. There is no danger for you. No data I can use against you. Will you do it? Most people would not. What you decide to be private is, just because you decide it. MS doesn't get to decide that.
- Eli_P 6y ago
  It's not that easy. Take into consideration spreading of sensors like light/water/gas/sewerage meters, which report measurements to a central SCADA. I touched that around a decade ago, I had to build link with the meters with AT commands through GSM with modbus protocol on top of that. These days it's a grown-ass market with competition and much more advanced toys involved. You turn on water, they know timings and how much you used. You use more electricity, they call you to suggest a different plan. You used drugs and flushed, they find metabolites in sewerage sensors (I heard that on news, dunno maybe bs). So I think it's basically about bills; cameras in toilets are different market.
bluGill 6y ago
I don't know. Plenty of politicians have lost because of their behavior years past turned from normal to unacceptable. I probably won't run for anything, but just in case.
MrDresden 6y ago
I completely block access to Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and some other social media outlets on my home network.
tomrod 6y ago
Bank passwords. Personal data. It's not okay for them to take data like this.
CamperBob2 6y ago
I'm sure you leave your car doors unlocked, because you don't mind if people randomly rifle through your glovebox as long as they don't take anything. Right? And yes, this analogy is admittedly a weak one, because while your particular brand of car does have locks on its doors, the manufacturer didn't give you the key.
_emacsomancer_ 6y ago
> Do you ban your family from using social media as well due to data collection? No-one (at least yet) is running FacebookOS.
- dhosek 6y ago
  Not for lack of trying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First
Thanos_ 6y ago
When you buy a house, do you let the realtors keep a copy of the keys to snoop around whenever they want?
flukus 6y ago
Every TOS update and every windows update (probably also unasked for) means it's a never ending task to stay on top of things, the only winning move is not to play.

by Jonnax 6y ago

cycloptic 6y ago

If it's really not that important then perhaps they could afford to stop doing it?

speeder 6y ago

I am not OP. But an example that I once used to explain to my wife why I don't trust TikTok and whatnot: Some time ago (I obviously won't say when) we interacted with a person, that had a bounty on his head, setup by Boko Haram, and people DID tried to kill him before. What if for example we had filmed him and that information leaked or got intercepted? Me, and my wife, have no enemies, done nothing illegal, and so on, nothing to hide personally, but about other people we interact with? What if some day a friend on internet, maybe a gaming buddy, tells me a important secret out of the blue because he needs urgent help, and that secret gets intercepted?

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
I want to make a similar point. Suppose you will forevermore remain a boring person who never has anything to hide. So you knowingly use spyware, because you're an open book. That enables common software to be spyware. If people are willing to use it knowing full well what it is, it continues to exist and be popular. Then people who do need privacy for legitimate reasons don't realize that, or don't have any good alternatives because the better options are niche and make them stick out like a sore thumb. And then dissidents get killed. Don't get dissidents killed. Just Say No to The Cloud.

simion314 6y ago

Not OC but for example for me I won't like that a list of all my files,app or urls I visited to be saved and stored somewhere. Telemetry should always be opt-in or ask the user (we had cases where for example people were recorded by mistake and the conversations were send to contractors/developers without the user knowing)

squarefoot 6y ago

The point is that the family might actually want to upload their stuff to the social network, while using an OS and associated software doesn't and should never translate into surrendering all use and other personal data. Would you find comfortable if while eating at the restaurant with your SO, a waiter sat at next table constantly staring at you two, and taking notes on what you eat, how you do it, in how much time and how much you appear to have enjoyed it, possibly also by analyzing your words? Stupid example maybe, but that would be just one of the many exact equivalents in real life. Don't tell that to toilet manufacturers:)

tejtm 6y ago

Why do you care about some random pickpocket going through your wallet? It is not like they are keeping your wallet...

badrabbit 6y ago

It's called consent. No one likes being stalked or their will violated. A company that does not think much of your wishes and desires will cause you harm when they have to. What can be used against you, will be used against you.

cm2187 6y ago

Why do you have a door on your bathroom?

usr1106 6y ago
Rhetorical question I know..., but I cannot resist to add 2 observations I made in the past - The Finnish army did not have doors at their toilets before they got a female defense minister who obviously shocked by that practice ordered that doors need to be installed. - In 2008 I visited New York City while suffering from stomach problems (We had bought the tickets months before.) While strolling around near Washington square I urgently needed to visit a toilet. I run to Washington Square and into the public restrooms there, to make the shocking discovery that there were no toilet cabins. It was just a big room with several toilet bowls and of course I was not alone. But there was no choice: It's the pants or the (semi-) public toilet bowl. (It remained unclear whether the setup was a result of vandalism or a prevention of vandalism or what) I'm neither Finnish nor American and I found both learnings pretty shocking. But obviously it's just a cultural thing what is shocking and what not. That said I am not happy that spying on users, whether its Android apps or Microsoft telemetry is seen as culturally acceptable instead of shocking by a majority of the public today.

PeterStuer 6y ago

>I'm so curious. Why do you care so much about Microsoft telemetry? You can be curious, but it's not on the OP to have to argue why he cares. Microsoft should not exfiltrate anything without asking for explicit permission, and honor a blanket refusal without exception. That the OP has to go through extreme countermeasures to prevent this leeching is unacceptable. >Do you ban your family from using social media as well due to data collection? This logical fallacy rhetoric is known as a whataboutism [1](an attempt to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
Actually, I think it's a reasonable question as to why I care so much. I'd like to say I have a rational justification based on risk/reward analysis, but I don't have enough information or time to really do that. Honestly, it's more visceral. They repeatedly try to deceive people to pry away their private information. I want it to stop, and (probably to my discredit) I have strongly vengeful fantasies against the perps.
- inetknght 6y ago
  Reasonable, arguably. Let me throw some shade though: > "Do you want to eat some cake?" > "No" That's a very reasonable question and answer. > "Why don't you want some cake?" You might think it's reasonable to ask why someone doesn't want cake. I think it's prying. The first time it's asked, okay, fine. > "Would you want some cake if it was chocolate?" You're still asking about cake when the person said no. > "Do you not like sprinkles?" Why are you trying to conflate sprinkles with cake? > "I can help you eat it better if understood why you didn't want it." Seriously. You're building a pattern of abuse here. "No" is a complete answer for permission. Trying to get around that "no" is malicious and abusive.
  - pierrebai 6y ago
    Your answer aligns with pretty much all the others. They have in common reprhasing the original situation or questions in extreme way possible. Cake is a personal taste. Are technical choices a question of taste. Your arguing against debates and technical discussions. It's telling that many examples given were using video feed or pickpockets as an analogy to telemetry. These are not interesting explanations. Going to extreme arguments is not illuminating.

probably_wrong 6y ago

I think you are coming to this point from the wrong angle: if the OP thinks (like I do) that telemetry itself is an invasion of privacy, which data is sent is irrelevant. Asking "what data do you think they will exfiltrate?" assumes that the only reason to oppose telemetry is "they might see something I want to keep hidden". But, as it's often said when it comes to other people attempting to cross your personal boundaries, "'No' is a complete answer".

bergstromm466 6y ago
> as it's often said when it comes to other people attempting to cross your personal boundaries, "'No' is a complete answer". I love that, so important! Have people seen the Tea consent video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  Hmm. That's a cute way to talk through the ideas. But if someone asked for actual tea, then decided they just didn't want it, it would be okay to be a little pushy. Not hugely pushy, but notably more than with 'tea'.
  - bergstromm466 6y ago
    > be a little pushy Eh? Why would that be ok? I think it's worth asking them why they don't want it anymore. If they continue to say no, do you really think it is ok to start pouring it down their throat? Consent can be revoked at any point in time. For what it's worth I think most cultures today are crap at consent. I think many of us are victim to a pre-#MeToo culture where sexual harrasment was somewhat more socially 'acceptable' or 'accepted' [1][2]. I think of the memes of women who seem uncomfortable when Biden touches them. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk talks about his desire for a 'trauma-conscious' society. To me there is no denying that often we have been hurt, and that there is not enough support for many people out there. I believe we don't get the support that we would need to heal from these things. Walking around hurt and unhealed is unfortunately the norm. > That's a cute way to talk through the ideas Rape and sexual assualt are very common, so I think this video is more than 'cute'; it's essential. I hope we start showing this to kids at a younger age, to help them grow boundaries early on. This also concerns consent for non-sexual contact such as hugs, or just any other type of physical contact with another person. [1] women: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoP8VpbpYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoP8VpbpYI [2] men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

Give me an always-on camera in your toilets. Blur your face if you wish. There is no danger for you. No data I can use against you. Will you do it? Most people would not. What you decide to be private is, just because you decide it. MS doesn't get to decide that.

Eli_P 6y ago
It's not that easy. Take into consideration spreading of sensors like light/water/gas/sewerage meters, which report measurements to a central SCADA. I touched that around a decade ago, I had to build link with the meters with AT commands through GSM with modbus protocol on top of that. These days it's a grown-ass market with competition and much more advanced toys involved. You turn on water, they know timings and how much you used. You use more electricity, they call you to suggest a different plan. You used drugs and flushed, they find metabolites in sewerage sensors (I heard that on news, dunno maybe bs). So I think it's basically about bills; cameras in toilets are different market.

bluGill 6y ago

I don't know. Plenty of politicians have lost because of their behavior years past turned from normal to unacceptable. I probably won't run for anything, but just in case.

MrDresden 6y ago

I completely block access to Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and some other social media outlets on my home network.

tomrod 6y ago

Bank passwords. Personal data. It's not okay for them to take data like this.

CamperBob2 6y ago

I'm sure you leave your car doors unlocked, because you don't mind if people randomly rifle through your glovebox as long as they don't take anything. Right? And yes, this analogy is admittedly a weak one, because while your particular brand of car does have locks on its doors, the manufacturer didn't give you the key.

_emacsomancer_ 6y ago

> Do you ban your family from using social media as well due to data collection? No-one (at least yet) is running FacebookOS.

dhosek 6y ago
Not for lack of trying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First

Thanos_ 6y ago

When you buy a house, do you let the realtors keep a copy of the keys to snoop around whenever they want?

flukus 6y ago

Every TOS update and every windows update (probably also unasked for) means it's a never ending task to stay on top of things, the only winning move is not to play.