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Serious questions: Are the people that work at Facebook proud to work there? What is morale like inside that place? When someone asks you what you do, and you s

Serious questions: Are the people that work at Facebook proud to work there? What is morale like inside that place? When someone asks you what you do, and you say "I work for Facebook," what is their typical reaction? Not trying to be snarky. I'm genuinely curious how these perceptions/feelings might have changed over the past few years.

zeroonetwothree 6y ago
I could ask the same about working for the NYT. https://slatestarcodex.com/ https://slatestarcodex.com/
- 0xy 6y ago
  New York Times: Lied about Iraq WMDs and helped get tens of thousands of people killed. Facebook: Won't censor your political enemies enough.
bzb3 6y ago
Why would they be unhappy or ashamed? Not everybody shares your views of politics.
- tech-historian 6y ago
  Facebook is in Silicon Valley and I'm willing to bet most of its ranks are very liberal.
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  Because ethics =/= politics and I think it's a pretty universal judgement that Facebook has done some ethically dubious things in the past, and not much has changed from the policies that led them there in the first place.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    Okay but ethics isn't universal either. There is no objective moral framework. "Not everybody shares your views" == "Not everybody shares your ethics". Let me try and steel-man this for you: if you believe in classical liberal principles of free speech, then you might probably be "proud" to work at FB, as well as of Zuckerberg's stance. Here's a better articulation of that: https://stratechery.com/2020/zuckerbergs-choice-zuckerbergs-power-zuckerbergs-conviction/ https://stratechery.com/2020/zuckerbergs-choice-zuckerbergs-...
    - sneak 6y ago
      Ethics and morals are not the same thing. Morals are not universal. Ethical frameworks were created specifically to be an objective standard.
      - bhupy 6y ago
        > Ethical frameworks were created specifically to be an objective standard. Yes, and there are many ethical frameworks. You and I may subscribe to different ethical frameworks, and that's entirely a function of our morals.
    - _bxg1 6y ago
      Facebook and the like have directly driven a huge increase in worldwide division and polarization. And faced with that fact they've continued their course full-steam-ahead. I don't know of any moral framework where that isn't a negative for society. Some on the economic-right might argue it isn't Facebook's problem to worry about because something something The Market. But even they wouldn't say the full picture is a good one, and wouldn't deny the logic that working for the company, in practice, ends up contributing to that outcome.
      - bhupy 6y ago
        I really encourage you to try and construct the strongest counter-argument to yourself so that you might at least be able to empathize with why someone might be sympathetic to Facebook's current stances without jumping to the conclusion that they are cartoonishly evil. Remember that everyone is "the good guy" in their own story. The moral framework where Facebook "isn't a negative for society" is the one that says that a free society should be able to openly express itself, and insofar as there is a high degree of polarization/division, it's because society itself is divided, and the free expression simply exposes that. In other words, how do you know that Facebook caused the polarization? How can you definitely conclude that Facebook isn't simply a mirror on society, and that society was already divided to begin with?
mk4p 6y ago
Funny you should ask - I just saw this: > You don’t realize the heavy conscious and mental burden that comes with being a Facebook employee until you quit https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1275363680767537154 https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1275363680767537154
- listenallyall 6y ago
  Probably could replace "Facebook" with just about any company in that sentence. Having to uphold "company values", live by some boss's petty rules, take HR initiatives seriously, etc, is pretty much universally frustrating.
  - paulgb 6y ago
    Not all companies equally, though, and I think that's the point here.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Nah, most companies just want their employees to do their jobs. It's only these Silicon Valley cults that expect everyone to drink the koolaid about "values" and center your personal identity around your job. If you don't believe this, go get a job at a lumber yard or a warehouse or something. Related reading: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/558867.Disciplined_Minds https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/558867.Disciplined_Minds https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466958-bullshit-jobs https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466958-bullshit-jobs
    - listenallyall 6y ago
      You don't think there's a severe mental burden associated with having to clock in and out, reprimands for being 6 minutes late, only being allowed to visit a doctor if it's on the health plan's list, few opportunities for advancement, work quotas, can't leave early to pick up a sick kid from school, etc etc? Not to mention most warehouse workers don't make nearly enough to have the luxury of quitting.
    - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
elicash 6y ago
Here's some info about favorability ratings of Facebook and its changes: https://www.axios.com/exclusive-poll-facebook-favorability-plunges-1522057235-b1fa31db-e646-4413-a273-95d3387da4f2.html https://www.axios.com/exclusive-poll-facebook-favorability-p...
lopis 6y ago
There was a comment here from someone working in a company (strongly hinted that it was Google or Facebook) where they described that basically most people are aware that lots of what they do is terrible for the web and humanity in the long term, but they have a culture of pretending they are creating something good for the world and patting each other on the backs. And since their pockets are being lined with good money, medical, etc, it's hard to leave.
neya 6y ago
In Singapore, most of them are actually proud. I've been to their office a bunch of times and in fact, people treat it as something super prestigious, especially considering the office space is really nice with a beautiful view of the Marina. Sometimes, their employees will sound extremely arrogant and even look down upon you if you don't work for another equivalent giant (like Google Singapore). I guess different parts of the world have different moral standards. It is the way it is.
- bathtub365 6y ago
  Singapore itself employs a surveillance apparatus against its citizens so I'd expect the cultural norms there may be affected by that.
- maurys 6y ago
  Culturally, yes, prestige and a known company is probably more helpful in Asian countries. Another perspective is that I take the money, help support my extended family and community and feel like a net positive contributer. Concerns with how social media is affecting relationships and corporate bullying are less real to me personally than the people I meet day to day who I can support. Again, not arguing about which perspective is right, but yeah there are other ways to look at one's situation.
mathattack 6y ago
The folks I know there don’t have issues. The adtech folks would otherwise be at other adtech companies. The product managers would otherwise be at other large tech companies. Nobody is 100% clean, and I don’t see many folks in Silicon Valley struggling with their conscious.
pesenti 6y ago
I have answered part of your question before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19036507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19036507 Happy to answer more.
- WhompingWindows 6y ago
  Can you explain why you think FB's products are good for the world? Do you think Donald Trump would be President without FB? Edit: Apparently someone downvoted this comment within 60 seconds...this seems contrary to HN's ethos. I asked a general question with a specific example; is someone triggered by the words "Donald Trump"? This is pushing a legitimate question about FB's effect on the world down into the gray...is that a good thing?
  - pesenti 6y ago
    I am an immigrant in the US. My family uses FB products (FB App, WhatsApp, Portal) to stay in touch across the world. It really improves our lives. It doesn't mean I believe everything that's done on our products is good for the world, but I do believe the good outweighs the bad by a wide margin. A big part of my job is to make sure that this margin increases.
    - rainyMammoth 6y ago
      I really don't see how by a wide margin Facebook products can be a net positive to the world. They are a net NEGATIVE and probably by a huge margin (if you could quantify it, probably destroying more lives than a lot of defence contractors). Facebook: - Disrupt democracy all over the world,creating divisive political lines between us. - Destroys the mental health of millions of teenagers that spend hours on Instagram comparing their lives with the fake lives of other people. An epidemic of mental health is directly linked to Instagram/Facebook - Make us lose Billions of hours scrolling through a feed of nonsense just to display some ads. Facebook is a huge net negative to the world. The only justification that I can see working for them is selfish money. Call it what it is, don't come up with some nonsense Koolaid around the product being a positive to the world.
erikw 6y ago
I too am curious about the internal motivations of people who work for Facebook. Something I've noticed about myself is that I would be okay with working for a US defense contractor, ie a company which makes machines that literally kill people, yet I could not picture myself working at Facebook. I struggle to square this morally, because I also believe that defense contractors have a greater net negative impact on society than Facebook does, but there is something "icky" to me about Facebook. I used to commute with a group of folks from Facebook, Oracle, and Amazon, and none of them seemed to have any moral qualms about their employers. My buddy from Oracle invited me to apply to work on his team, and in explaining why I couldn't consider working at Oracle, I mentioned some recent terrible thing Oracle had done in the open source community. His response was that Amazon contributed even less open source (which I believe is true). So I think in the end, the internal justification is "Yeah, maybe I'm contributing to something immoral, but it's less immoral than X & Y".
- ethbro 6y ago
  Clear definition of mission is important. For external and internal consumption. The US military has a pretty clear mission, however you feel about it. Facebook: "Give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together.” [0] I'm not sure what actionable guidance I'd be able to draw from the above. [0] https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/22/bring-the-world-closer-together/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/22/bring-the-world-closer-tog...
- esperent 6y ago
  > I would be okay with working for a US defense contractor, ie a company which makes machines that literally kill people The thought of working for a company like this makes me feel physically ill. Soldiers can at least feel like they are working to defend a country they believe in. Weapons companies will sell killing machines to anyone with money. Few things in the world make me feel the visceral disgust that these companies engender. By contrast Facebook is icky ... In the sense that there's one naive greedy idiot pulling the strings and he refuses to accept the damage he's causing. Weapons companies and the people who work for them know that their killing tools are sold indiscriminately and will end up in the hands of tyrants and terrorists across the world.
greatwhitenorth 6y ago
You can ask this question about most of the for profit businesses. Apple (Foxconn), Amazon(Warehouse issues), Microsoft(ICE), just a few examples. How many of those who are against Facebook are still using Apple products or buying from Amazon. You can't pick and choose your ethics.
- staticassertion 6y ago
  > You can't pick and choose your ethics. Yes you can? I think X is OK, I think Y is not OK. I can even be a hypocrite about it, because X and Y may be fundamentally related, or share a source. The ethical issues with Facebook could easily be seen as independent from the ethical issues with those other companies.
nailer 6y ago
In terms of not moderating public conversation, I would /absolutely/ be proud of Facebook's stance here. Compare this to Twitter, where a similar large amount of political discussion takes place, but mentioning that the law will be enforced is considered a 'threat' whereas actual death threats and doxxing are not.
spfjefe 6y ago
I have quite a few friends who have worked and still do work for Facebook. I used to know someone who worked on their "security" team that truly had some frightening powers re: privacy, but with the excuse that it's ok because of stories of saving some kidnapped child's life, or helping track down someone with terrorist connections because they had Facebook messenger on their phone so they could pinpoint their exact location and report it (along with message history) to the police. I know a guy who worked on a content moderation team and has been severely psychologically affected as a result. Like, he's not the same guy anymore. But he still works there and doesn't seem to consider taking any other job. I think it's because once you've seen all sorts of horrific images and have knowledge of heinous acts going on in the world after you're put in a position of policing them, you feel like the problem is bigger than yourself and your needs are secondary. It's sad, though. I've never heard any of the people I know talk negatively about Facebook in any way, especially not a "wow, I can't believe I work for these people." There's always a focus on the good they're doing, and how the good outweighs the bad. After Trump got elected, there was all sorts of talk about how Facebook is bringing people together with feminist and anti-trump groups, ignoring the other facts. When Zuckerberg was testifying to Congress over privacy issues it was all about how he's being misrepresented and Congress doesn't understand the internet. Only recently have I detected some small dissatisfaction from someone who has worked at FB for 7+ years, but instead of jumping ship entirely they switched to working for a different Facebook owned brand. But I hear the pay is great, benefits are great, stock options are great, and the Facebook kool-aid is a mighty potent drink.
shultays 6y ago
I saw a more snarky comment on this topic which still makes me smirk: "Hopefully one day they will see the little skull icons on their hats and ask the question 'are we the baddies?'"
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  The origin of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU
rainyMammoth 6y ago
I know a couple. The answer is simple: Money. Facebook pays way above what other tech companies pay (a 6 year of experience senior engineer in Menlo Park can easily make 600k/year). There is also a sense of pride coming from back in the days when Facebook was still seen as a very exclusive and wonderful place to work at.
- bradlys 6y ago
  600k/yr seems a bit far fetched for six years of experience. levels.fyi is one source that I think would contradict the easiness of that goal. Facebook pays in line with what other top big public tech companies pay. You could go to Google or Netflix and expect similar comp.
  - 0xy 6y ago
    It is far fetched, but Google and Netflix cannot match FB. FB beats Google at every level, on average.
- dingaling 6y ago
  Not being facetious, but what to the devs do all day to earn that? Their core functionality, Find a Friend, is pathetically limited and naive. Why can't I search for ( cohort of near my age who went to my school ) or ( everyone called Bob who is one or two hops from Alice and lives in Bigville )? Or even search a friend list by some criteria instead of scrolling through 1200 names. Frankly it sucks.
  - askafriend 6y ago
    > Why can't I search for ( cohort of near my age who went to my school ) or ( everyone called Bob who is one or two hops from Alice and lives in Bigville )? They had this feature a couple years ago. It was called Graph Search and did exactly what you're suggesting (and even more impressive than that). They shut it down fairly quickly because it was a huge privacy and security issue as well as an incredibly abusive feature at their scale. Building products in a system as complex as FB is not as straightforward as adding features just because you can or have the talent to do so.
lwb 6y ago
I am. Morale is good, took a minor hiccup recently but has pretty much recovered by now. When I tell everyday folk that I work for Facebook, the reaction is usually, "wow, cool!" and if they're tech minded, they might ask a few questions about the tech stack we use. Most people at Facebook believe that FB is good for the world, Zuck is a good leader, and that we are working to address dubious ethical decisions made in the past. Sure, FB itself may be a bubble, but HN is even more of a bubble :)
- humanrebar 6y ago
  I wouldn't trash someone's employer in a mixed social setting. That would be rude, including on social media, regardless of what common behavior is these days. I might have interesting questions for a sibling or close friend though, assuming we had that kind of relationship.
- bavell 6y ago
  For better or worse, this pretty much confirms what I expected. "The Kool-aid here sure tastes great!"
- 0xy 6y ago
  Most people aren't hyper-partisan ideologues that boycott companies based on their political censorship policies, that's why. Also, by boycotting FB as a developer you're reducing your earning potential considering FB is the top of the compensation pile.
greggman3 6y ago
I don't want to excuse anything facebook does that's bad and do take some effort to be less tracked. I have FB blocked in one browser profile and I have all but FB blocked in another and many other things. That said, my experience using Facebook is mostly positive. I see what my sister is up to, my mom, my aunt, several friends and acquaintances. Facebook messenger is by far my most used communications service. I have taken step to keep it that way. I get no news of facebook. I've joined almost no groups. I unfollow anyone who gets too political, that has included a couple of close friends who I want to follow but they jsut can't stop posting politics several times week or even day so "unfollow". I run FB Purity in the browser can block a bunch of stuff but I don't have that option in the FB app and for the most part I don't notice too much crap in my feed. In other words, AFAIK it's mostly a positive in my life and the life of my friends. If I worked at Facebook I'd certainly be proud of how helped people stay in touch and organize group events. I'm not excusing anything bad they do. Just suggesting I suspect many people have a mostly positive experience or they'd quit.

zeroonetwothree 6y ago

I could ask the same about working for the NYT. https://slatestarcodex.com/ https://slatestarcodex.com/

0xy 6y ago
New York Times: Lied about Iraq WMDs and helped get tens of thousands of people killed. Facebook: Won't censor your political enemies enough.

bzb3 6y ago

Why would they be unhappy or ashamed? Not everybody shares your views of politics.

tech-historian 6y ago
Facebook is in Silicon Valley and I'm willing to bet most of its ranks are very liberal.
Enginerrrd 6y ago
Because ethics =/= politics and I think it's a pretty universal judgement that Facebook has done some ethically dubious things in the past, and not much has changed from the policies that led them there in the first place.
- bhupy 6y ago
  Okay but ethics isn't universal either. There is no objective moral framework. "Not everybody shares your views" == "Not everybody shares your ethics". Let me try and steel-man this for you: if you believe in classical liberal principles of free speech, then you might probably be "proud" to work at FB, as well as of Zuckerberg's stance. Here's a better articulation of that: https://stratechery.com/2020/zuckerbergs-choice-zuckerbergs-power-zuckerbergs-conviction/ https://stratechery.com/2020/zuckerbergs-choice-zuckerbergs-...
  - sneak 6y ago
    Ethics and morals are not the same thing. Morals are not universal. Ethical frameworks were created specifically to be an objective standard.
    - bhupy 6y ago
      > Ethical frameworks were created specifically to be an objective standard. Yes, and there are many ethical frameworks. You and I may subscribe to different ethical frameworks, and that's entirely a function of our morals.
  - _bxg1 6y ago
    Facebook and the like have directly driven a huge increase in worldwide division and polarization. And faced with that fact they've continued their course full-steam-ahead. I don't know of any moral framework where that isn't a negative for society. Some on the economic-right might argue it isn't Facebook's problem to worry about because something something The Market. But even they wouldn't say the full picture is a good one, and wouldn't deny the logic that working for the company, in practice, ends up contributing to that outcome.
    - bhupy 6y ago
      I really encourage you to try and construct the strongest counter-argument to yourself so that you might at least be able to empathize with why someone might be sympathetic to Facebook's current stances without jumping to the conclusion that they are cartoonishly evil. Remember that everyone is "the good guy" in their own story. The moral framework where Facebook "isn't a negative for society" is the one that says that a free society should be able to openly express itself, and insofar as there is a high degree of polarization/division, it's because society itself is divided, and the free expression simply exposes that. In other words, how do you know that Facebook caused the polarization? How can you definitely conclude that Facebook isn't simply a mirror on society, and that society was already divided to begin with?

mk4p 6y ago

Funny you should ask - I just saw this: > You don’t realize the heavy conscious and mental burden that comes with being a Facebook employee until you quit https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1275363680767537154 https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1275363680767537154

listenallyall 6y ago
Probably could replace "Facebook" with just about any company in that sentence. Having to uphold "company values", live by some boss's petty rules, take HR initiatives seriously, etc, is pretty much universally frustrating.
- paulgb 6y ago
  Not all companies equally, though, and I think that's the point here.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Nah, most companies just want their employees to do their jobs. It's only these Silicon Valley cults that expect everyone to drink the koolaid about "values" and center your personal identity around your job. If you don't believe this, go get a job at a lumber yard or a warehouse or something. Related reading: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/558867.Disciplined_Minds https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/558867.Disciplined_Minds https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466958-bullshit-jobs https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466958-bullshit-jobs
  - listenallyall 6y ago
    You don't think there's a severe mental burden associated with having to clock in and out, reprimands for being 6 minutes late, only being allowed to visit a doctor if it's on the health plan's list, few opportunities for advancement, work quotas, can't leave early to pick up a sick kid from school, etc etc? Not to mention most warehouse workers don't make nearly enough to have the luxury of quitting.
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago

elicash 6y ago

Here's some info about favorability ratings of Facebook and its changes: https://www.axios.com/exclusive-poll-facebook-favorability-plunges-1522057235-b1fa31db-e646-4413-a273-95d3387da4f2.html https://www.axios.com/exclusive-poll-facebook-favorability-p...

lopis 6y ago

There was a comment here from someone working in a company (strongly hinted that it was Google or Facebook) where they described that basically most people are aware that lots of what they do is terrible for the web and humanity in the long term, but they have a culture of pretending they are creating something good for the world and patting each other on the backs. And since their pockets are being lined with good money, medical, etc, it's hard to leave.

neya 6y ago

In Singapore, most of them are actually proud. I've been to their office a bunch of times and in fact, people treat it as something super prestigious, especially considering the office space is really nice with a beautiful view of the Marina. Sometimes, their employees will sound extremely arrogant and even look down upon you if you don't work for another equivalent giant (like Google Singapore). I guess different parts of the world have different moral standards. It is the way it is.

bathtub365 6y ago
Singapore itself employs a surveillance apparatus against its citizens so I'd expect the cultural norms there may be affected by that.
maurys 6y ago
Culturally, yes, prestige and a known company is probably more helpful in Asian countries. Another perspective is that I take the money, help support my extended family and community and feel like a net positive contributer. Concerns with how social media is affecting relationships and corporate bullying are less real to me personally than the people I meet day to day who I can support. Again, not arguing about which perspective is right, but yeah there are other ways to look at one's situation.

mathattack 6y ago

The folks I know there don’t have issues. The adtech folks would otherwise be at other adtech companies. The product managers would otherwise be at other large tech companies. Nobody is 100% clean, and I don’t see many folks in Silicon Valley struggling with their conscious.

pesenti 6y ago

I have answered part of your question before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19036507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19036507 Happy to answer more.

WhompingWindows 6y ago
Can you explain why you think FB's products are good for the world? Do you think Donald Trump would be President without FB? Edit: Apparently someone downvoted this comment within 60 seconds...this seems contrary to HN's ethos. I asked a general question with a specific example; is someone triggered by the words "Donald Trump"? This is pushing a legitimate question about FB's effect on the world down into the gray...is that a good thing?
- pesenti 6y ago
  I am an immigrant in the US. My family uses FB products (FB App, WhatsApp, Portal) to stay in touch across the world. It really improves our lives. It doesn't mean I believe everything that's done on our products is good for the world, but I do believe the good outweighs the bad by a wide margin. A big part of my job is to make sure that this margin increases.
  - rainyMammoth 6y ago
    I really don't see how by a wide margin Facebook products can be a net positive to the world. They are a net NEGATIVE and probably by a huge margin (if you could quantify it, probably destroying more lives than a lot of defence contractors). Facebook: - Disrupt democracy all over the world,creating divisive political lines between us. - Destroys the mental health of millions of teenagers that spend hours on Instagram comparing their lives with the fake lives of other people. An epidemic of mental health is directly linked to Instagram/Facebook - Make us lose Billions of hours scrolling through a feed of nonsense just to display some ads. Facebook is a huge net negative to the world. The only justification that I can see working for them is selfish money. Call it what it is, don't come up with some nonsense Koolaid around the product being a positive to the world.

erikw 6y ago

I too am curious about the internal motivations of people who work for Facebook. Something I've noticed about myself is that I would be okay with working for a US defense contractor, ie a company which makes machines that literally kill people, yet I could not picture myself working at Facebook. I struggle to square this morally, because I also believe that defense contractors have a greater net negative impact on society than Facebook does, but there is something "icky" to me about Facebook. I used to commute with a group of folks from Facebook, Oracle, and Amazon, and none of them seemed to have any moral qualms about their employers. My buddy from Oracle invited me to apply to work on his team, and in explaining why I couldn't consider working at Oracle, I mentioned some recent terrible thing Oracle had done in the open source community. His response was that Amazon contributed even less open source (which I believe is true). So I think in the end, the internal justification is "Yeah, maybe I'm contributing to something immoral, but it's less immoral than X & Y".

ethbro 6y ago
Clear definition of mission is important. For external and internal consumption. The US military has a pretty clear mission, however you feel about it. Facebook: "Give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together.” [0] I'm not sure what actionable guidance I'd be able to draw from the above. [0] https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/22/bring-the-world-closer-together/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/22/bring-the-world-closer-tog...
esperent 6y ago
> I would be okay with working for a US defense contractor, ie a company which makes machines that literally kill people The thought of working for a company like this makes me feel physically ill. Soldiers can at least feel like they are working to defend a country they believe in. Weapons companies will sell killing machines to anyone with money. Few things in the world make me feel the visceral disgust that these companies engender. By contrast Facebook is icky ... In the sense that there's one naive greedy idiot pulling the strings and he refuses to accept the damage he's causing. Weapons companies and the people who work for them know that their killing tools are sold indiscriminately and will end up in the hands of tyrants and terrorists across the world.

greatwhitenorth 6y ago

You can ask this question about most of the for profit businesses. Apple (Foxconn), Amazon(Warehouse issues), Microsoft(ICE), just a few examples. How many of those who are against Facebook are still using Apple products or buying from Amazon. You can't pick and choose your ethics.

staticassertion 6y ago
> You can't pick and choose your ethics. Yes you can? I think X is OK, I think Y is not OK. I can even be a hypocrite about it, because X and Y may be fundamentally related, or share a source. The ethical issues with Facebook could easily be seen as independent from the ethical issues with those other companies.

nailer 6y ago

In terms of not moderating public conversation, I would /absolutely/ be proud of Facebook's stance here. Compare this to Twitter, where a similar large amount of political discussion takes place, but mentioning that the law will be enforced is considered a 'threat' whereas actual death threats and doxxing are not.

spfjefe 6y ago

I have quite a few friends who have worked and still do work for Facebook. I used to know someone who worked on their "security" team that truly had some frightening powers re: privacy, but with the excuse that it's ok because of stories of saving some kidnapped child's life, or helping track down someone with terrorist connections because they had Facebook messenger on their phone so they could pinpoint their exact location and report it (along with message history) to the police. I know a guy who worked on a content moderation team and has been severely psychologically affected as a result. Like, he's not the same guy anymore. But he still works there and doesn't seem to consider taking any other job. I think it's because once you've seen all sorts of horrific images and have knowledge of heinous acts going on in the world after you're put in a position of policing them, you feel like the problem is bigger than yourself and your needs are secondary. It's sad, though. I've never heard any of the people I know talk negatively about Facebook in any way, especially not a "wow, I can't believe I work for these people." There's always a focus on the good they're doing, and how the good outweighs the bad. After Trump got elected, there was all sorts of talk about how Facebook is bringing people together with feminist and anti-trump groups, ignoring the other facts. When Zuckerberg was testifying to Congress over privacy issues it was all about how he's being misrepresented and Congress doesn't understand the internet. Only recently have I detected some small dissatisfaction from someone who has worked at FB for 7+ years, but instead of jumping ship entirely they switched to working for a different Facebook owned brand. But I hear the pay is great, benefits are great, stock options are great, and the Facebook kool-aid is a mighty potent drink.

shultays 6y ago

I saw a more snarky comment on this topic which still makes me smirk: "Hopefully one day they will see the little skull icons on their hats and ask the question 'are we the baddies?'"

cmdshiftf4 6y ago
The origin of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

rainyMammoth 6y ago

I know a couple. The answer is simple: Money. Facebook pays way above what other tech companies pay (a 6 year of experience senior engineer in Menlo Park can easily make 600k/year). There is also a sense of pride coming from back in the days when Facebook was still seen as a very exclusive and wonderful place to work at.

bradlys 6y ago
600k/yr seems a bit far fetched for six years of experience. levels.fyi is one source that I think would contradict the easiness of that goal. Facebook pays in line with what other top big public tech companies pay. You could go to Google or Netflix and expect similar comp.
- 0xy 6y ago
  It is far fetched, but Google and Netflix cannot match FB. FB beats Google at every level, on average.
dingaling 6y ago
Not being facetious, but what to the devs do all day to earn that? Their core functionality, Find a Friend, is pathetically limited and naive. Why can't I search for ( cohort of near my age who went to my school ) or ( everyone called Bob who is one or two hops from Alice and lives in Bigville )? Or even search a friend list by some criteria instead of scrolling through 1200 names. Frankly it sucks.
- askafriend 6y ago
  > Why can't I search for ( cohort of near my age who went to my school ) or ( everyone called Bob who is one or two hops from Alice and lives in Bigville )? They had this feature a couple years ago. It was called Graph Search and did exactly what you're suggesting (and even more impressive than that). They shut it down fairly quickly because it was a huge privacy and security issue as well as an incredibly abusive feature at their scale. Building products in a system as complex as FB is not as straightforward as adding features just because you can or have the talent to do so.

lwb 6y ago

I am. Morale is good, took a minor hiccup recently but has pretty much recovered by now. When I tell everyday folk that I work for Facebook, the reaction is usually, "wow, cool!" and if they're tech minded, they might ask a few questions about the tech stack we use. Most people at Facebook believe that FB is good for the world, Zuck is a good leader, and that we are working to address dubious ethical decisions made in the past. Sure, FB itself may be a bubble, but HN is even more of a bubble :)

humanrebar 6y ago
I wouldn't trash someone's employer in a mixed social setting. That would be rude, including on social media, regardless of what common behavior is these days. I might have interesting questions for a sibling or close friend though, assuming we had that kind of relationship.
bavell 6y ago
For better or worse, this pretty much confirms what I expected. "The Kool-aid here sure tastes great!"
0xy 6y ago
Most people aren't hyper-partisan ideologues that boycott companies based on their political censorship policies, that's why. Also, by boycotting FB as a developer you're reducing your earning potential considering FB is the top of the compensation pile.

greggman3 6y ago

I don't want to excuse anything facebook does that's bad and do take some effort to be less tracked. I have FB blocked in one browser profile and I have all but FB blocked in another and many other things. That said, my experience using Facebook is mostly positive. I see what my sister is up to, my mom, my aunt, several friends and acquaintances. Facebook messenger is by far my most used communications service. I have taken step to keep it that way. I get no news of facebook. I've joined almost no groups. I unfollow anyone who gets too political, that has included a couple of close friends who I want to follow but they jsut can't stop posting politics several times week or even day so "unfollow". I run FB Purity in the browser can block a bunch of stuff but I don't have that option in the FB app and for the most part I don't notice too much crap in my feed. In other words, AFAIK it's mostly a positive in my life and the life of my friends. If I worked at Facebook I'd certainly be proud of how helped people stay in touch and organize group events. I'm not excusing anything bad they do. Just suggesting I suspect many people have a mostly positive experience or they'd quit.