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Don’t Fly During Ramadan (2013)
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago(2013). Not that anything has changed for the better.
- matsemann 6y agoPrevious discussion from 2017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13901327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13901327 (knew I had read this before)
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y agoPrevious discussion from 2013, when this got 2744 upvotes and 966 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258422
- taneq 6y agoMy days of not ever wanting to revisit the U.S. - especially by air - are certainly coming to a middle.
- bryanrasmussen 6y agowhat does coming to a middle mean - I would take it to mean that if you will have a range of 2000 consecutive days of not wanting to visit the US you would be at day 1000.
- iso1631 6y agoFirefly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9ZgnVb5Q7I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9ZgnVb5Q7I
- searchableguy 6y agoHe is getting close to the end.
- Nition 6y agoIt's a joke from a TV series called Friefly[1]. It's just a funny way of saying "I didn't {x} before, and that hasn't changed." [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9ZgnVb5Q7I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9ZgnVb5Q7I
- xwdv 6y agoIt means he stopped wanting to visit some time ago, and after a similar duration from back then to now passes he will like to visit again.
- taneq 6y agoYep, I mean there were a lot of good things about the U.S. and I'd like to go back someday but stories like this would give me pause even if COVID-19 wasn't running rampant and social unrest amplifying. Also Firefly, though.
- Thomas812 6y agoMaybe because during ramadan terrorist attacks are up significantly and perpetrated by people looking like you in a very high proportion? Can't stand the arrogant victim-posing tone of this article.
- churchillracist 6y ago> Maybe because during ramadan terrorist attacks are up significantly and perpetrated by people looking lik you in an outstanding proportion? Where did you study these statistics? And how do you know what "people looking lik you" is given that the author didn't post his/her photograph? > Can't stand the arrogant victim-posing tone of this article. Is there a different possible explanation for why you can't stand it? Perhaps something more internal to yourself?
- Thomas812 6y agoHe specifically said the homeland security started to talk to him in hindi and referred to himself as Americanised so if you have two atoms of common sense you'll understand the man looks Indian, Pakistani, or anything between middle east and India. Now you can just open Wikipedia and have a look at biggest terrorist attacks on US soil, and attacks numbers during ramadan and realise what I said is simply true. Unless you're convinced 9/11 and the Orlando terrorist attacks were inside jobs of course...
- drumhead 6y agoSo the only cause they had to detain him was that he was the wrong colour. Reminds me of that that scene in Family Guy with the colour chart.
- Thomas812 6y agoAh yes, the TSA you spend more time stopping and searching 80 years old white females instead. Makes lot of sense to waste your time with profiles that have historically not been involved.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- TimSchumann 6y agoGood read and a great reminder. That shaking feeling described is... yeah.
- golemiprague 6y agoEvery time I have been in the US I got into the special screening, maybe because I am from a certain country with a lot of Muslims. So what? who cares? I understand why they do it, I know it is not personal and I just cooperate and move along with my life. Even more than that I don't understand why they even bother to pretend to check all those old American white women, just work according to probability and statistics, people are not so fragile like the blacks in the US that they can't deal with a bit of police or border questioning.
- sub7 6y agoCold fact - America is amazing to you if you're wealthy. They're still slave owners and if you don't know that you're wealthy, then sorry but you're the slave.
- rtpg 6y agoI mean this guy was working in Venture Capital? Probably not hurting for cash. This seems like clear-cut profiling + law enforcement paranoia and inability to de-escalate things.
- Scoundreller 6y agoAnd just plain over-resourcing. Doesn’t seem clear why so many different people from different agencies were required.
- majewsky 6y agoIn a twisted way, the agents' behavior is actually kind of rational if you think about it. They prefer false positives to false negatives because the cost of a false negative is a successful terrorist attack, whereas the cost of a false positive is an annoyed traveler.
- throwaway4666 6y agoThe cost of many false negatives is an overall worse quality of life for everyone, especially for targeted groups, and the enactment of a massive surveillance apparatus to enforce that QoL degradation.
- donpott 6y agowhich is the stated end goal of many a terrorist organisation.
- sub7 6y agoVCs are not necessarily wealthy at all. Only partners get real equity share (carry) and those can take 10+ years to return if at all. The 1% management fee gives most employees like a normal tech salary, which after cost of living and taxes is pretty slave. Agree on all the law enforcement spaghetti fucking up of course but this would never happen to an actual wealthy person.
- enriquto 6y agoOh my god. I do not know how people can have such patience. If I was subjected to the same absurd humiliation as the author, I'm afraid I would have "snapped" angrily and ended in a much worse situation.
- iliekcomputers 6y agoWhen people talk about privilege, this is what they're talking about. A white person would probably just not be in this situation enough for the need to comply. I remember the first time I was flying to the US, I was adviced by multiple people in the days leading up to the flight, to get rid of my beard, because it made me look Muslim. From all the stories, it's probably a good precaution to take. Stuff like this and complying to authority in a polite way even though all human instinct tells you to be pissed is normal.
- sdan 6y agoJust shows how much implicit (and in this case, explicit) bias there is
- hyko 6y agoPeople are scared of exploding airplanes, but not of turning the whole world into prison from which there is no escape.
- hnarn 6y ago> turning the whole world into prison from which there is no escape This kind of alarmist sentiment is meaningless without elaboration. It could equally be a marxist criticism of wage-slavery as it could be a neo-liberal critique of the surveillance state.
- hyko 6y agoIt’s not a Marxist or Neo-liberal critique, just an observation. People are (rightly) viscerally afraid of dying in a fireball, but are far less animated about the horrors of living as a non-person, without the right to privacy, freedom of movement, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, the presumption of innocence, due process in law, and just all round basic human dignity. The right to life is an important one, but it can and should be upheld without setting fire to all the others. Worth just reminding everyone that those rights exist whether the powerful of the day want to undermine or uphold them; they exist everywhere in the universe including airports. They exist for all people regardless of their religion or ethnicity. We’re not fooled into forgetting about these immutable rights just because someone acts as if that they have the authority to negate them. They most certainly do not.
- Scoundreller 6y agoWhat’s missing was the DOT complaint for compensation for JetBlue for Involuntarily Denied Boarding.
- livealife 6y agoReeeeeeeeeeeepost
- iobug 6y agoTSA looks like a govt. run molestation program in internet testimonials.
- blunte 6y agoBased on the many stories published about TSA experiences, and based on my own personal experiences (nothing scary like this 2013 story), I conclude that TSA does not have particularly high standards for intelligence or empathy. And to be fair to some of the TSA employees, their jobs look really sucky. Add to that a sense of power (because obviously they have the power to ruin your trip and perhaps your life if it causes you to end up on the no-fly list), and you've got a volatile situation.
- xnyan 6y agoI can’t imagine a worse job government job than being a TSA agent. Other federal agencies think you are a joke, the public mostly hates you and/or thinks you are a joke, and you make no money, and it’s a boring job were you have to stand up all day and talk to people at an airport. Oh and there are no real prospects of career advancement especially at the lower levels, and the job skills are not incredibly applicable in the outside world.
- bengale 6y agoI've only travelled to America once, and its the only place of all the places I've been to where I've been essentially interrogated in the departure lounge at Heathrow. I don't really recall what he was asking but I remember thinking it was very strange how rude and hostile he was being. It wasn't much better on the other side either to be honest. I haven't been back, and don't really have any intention of going to be honest.
- hkai 6y agoI think that's because America made quite a few enemies in the process of policing the world. Israel is much tougher on inbound travelers for the same reason. If America didn't police the world, China would, and we would still have Soviet Union, and probably Taiwan would not be on the map.
- Ar-Curunir 6y agothis is self-righteous “protectors of the world” nonsense
- hkai 6y agoWell you can think that way until you are the one they are protecting. Then it's nice having freedom of travel (thanks to the collapse of the USSR) or having the most progressive government in Asia (Taiwan). I'm really grateful to America for doing this.
- rallison 6y agoGreat read. And scary, and frustrating. What might be entirely coincidence, but I found interesting, was that this was a JetBlue flight from JFK. The one time I triggered the explosives detection machine was a JetBlue flight from JFK. I had almost nothing special - a carryon I've used many times before, with clothes and toiletries. I also had two small fossils I bought from the Evolution store in NYC, which the TSA agent seemed especially interested in retesting. In my case though, I just had to deal with a thorough search of the carryon, confusion from other TSA agents (something like "oh, you searched the carryon? That wasn't necessary" from one agent to another) and listening to the main TSA agent wax poetic about how evolution is a lie and how climate change is a hoax.
- nucleardog 6y agoMeanwhile I’ve gone gun range to airport without a change of clothes between and neither my skin or clothing apparently triggered anything when they swabbed me... Not sure what specifically their explosives test is testing for, but when I realized what I’d done while waiting in the security line the scenario that played out in my head definitely included them picking up on a wackload of gunpowder residue.
- kweks 6y agoPyrotechnician here. I've walked off gigs with my hands black from powder, smelling of powder, with so much powder falling from my bags that the security guards laughed about how "dirty" my bag was, got swabbed and went through without issue. Likewise, I have had colleagues travel with 12" mortar shells in their baggage without any issue. I can only assume they're checking for deflagrating explosives (TATP, ampho, etc).
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y agoThis is tremendously ballsy, and hilarious.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- KingOfCoders 6y agoLuckily he wasn't Sikh.
- enriquto 6y agoDoes the TSA hold a special grudge against Sikhs? (not that it would surprise me, just asking why you pointed that)
- kweks 6y agoIn theory, Sikhs must carry five items of faith, one of which is a "kırpan", which is a type of dagger.
- hnarn 6y agoInteresting, I had never heard about this before. Apparently it "only" dates back to the year 1699, and it was a commandment for the "Khalsa" Sikhs, which to my understanding is a subset of Sikhs. Wikipedia says that: > In the United Kingdom, there have been tensions between the Khalsa Sikhs and the non-Khalsa Sikhs. Many Sikhs in Britain have insisted on their right of not conforming to the Khalsa norms while maintaining that they are truly Sikh. On the other hand, some of the Khalsa Sikhs think of the non-Khalsa Sikhs as having abandoned the Sikh faith altogether. Anyway, for reference, the five K:s are: Kesh (uncut hair), Kangha (a wooden comb for the hair), Kara (an iron bracelet), Kachera (100% cotton tieable undergarment, not an elastic one) and Kirpan (an iron dagger large enough to defend oneself).
- KingOfCoders 6y agoSee for example https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/the-trouble-with-wearing-turbans-in-america/384832/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/the-tro... https://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/06/asia/sikh-hate-crimes-us-muslims/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/06/asia/sikh-hate-crimes-us-...
- bArray 6y agoOutside of the US, every time I go through airport security I am always "randomly" searched. "Sir, this is just a random search, we do this all the time" - I must be incredibly unlucky. Strangely, when I shave I get through fine.
- hnarn 6y agoThis might sound cynical but in that case I'd just shave before every flight. It's the same reason I always fly in a shirt when on business, it's one of many markers that makes you look like a business flyer, which will mean you're probably gonna be treated more like one. In my opinion, we can accept that reality is very severely non-optimal while still trying our best to avoid the problems that reality causes. Or in the words of Hunter S. Thompson (maybe misattributed): 'Pray to God, but row away from the rocks.'
- bArray 6y agoAnecdote: A student and their professor were flying abroad to present at a conference, where the student was presenting and the professor was there to network. As such, the student was suited and booted to present later that day. A flight attendant approaches the student in economy class and offers them a free upgrade, presumably because he is perceived to be of an important profession. Completely ignoring the ridiculously qualified, well-traveled, multiple language speaking, highly cited professor. They were quite salty but it made for a good story over some beers!
- viklove 6y agoI like my beard though, and I'm not bending over backwards to conform to some security agent's bigoted views. Fuck 'em. My mom called me frantically when I was in college once and told me to shave my beard because she didn't want me to be targeted (I'm brown) -- I didn't do it then, and I'm sure as hell not doing it now.
- DrinkWater 6y ago> Strangely, when I shave I get through fine. You forgot about wearing glasses. For some reason Airport security sees no danger in people wearing glasses. Shaving, wearing bland clothes and glasses (fake, because my vision is fine) are part of my travel strategy. And i am not joking.
- bArray 6y agoThe lack of rights one has when traveling through an airport is genuinely scary. As far as I'm aware once you start the security process I don't believe you can actually stop it without some similar interrogation like this. I remember a while back I believe it was New Zealand that wanted the ability to search your devices for BitCoins. I believe at least in the UK it's a criminal offense to not provide the password to your encrypted device. Unless things change I'm sure this will just get worse.
- z3t4 6y agoMaybe the photo got him free. Like an agent took it in order to explain to the others he was not in fact a Usama Bin laden guy.
- jiggawatts 6y agoBy the way, this is the primary reason I've never travelled to the United States. The US is missing out on tourism because people overseas read horror stories like this and scratch it off their want-to-go list. I categorise the US alongside wonderful places like Saudi Arabia, China, and Russia as a place where human rights aren't. I'm a white male of Christian background, I'm not on any "lists" that I know of, and have no reason to be. I work with government departments in my home country and have multiple clearance checks, some of which are very thorough. I sail through airport customs checks in every country. But clearly the US is number one mainly at being a police state. It's the world's richest third-world country. It's authoritarian to its core. In our country we have state-local police, one branch of federal police that exists only to protect politicians and a few other special duties. That's about it for uniformed people with arrest powers. Oh, technically we have the Office of the Sheriff for enforcing court orders, and I think Border Patrol aren't technically Police. I don't even know. It doesn't really come up as an issue for law abiding people, irrespective of their skin colour or time of year. Oh sure, you hear the homeless drug addicts complain about "the pigs" loudly, but... yeah. They're bound to. Meanwhile, allow me to list the US police forces or police-like groups that I know of the top of my head just by watching US-made television shows: State Troopers, Local and county police, Sherrifs, DEA, ATF, DHS, Military Police, FBI, ICE, Marshalls, Campus Police(!), Secret Service, and I'm probably forgetting a few. This is why the black-lives-matter riots are still going on. Your nation's law enforcement is a militarised, authoritarian nightmare. For someone who doesn't like being "not arrested for 18 hours" for "looking wrong" and using cleaning products, it's a place to avoid, not visit.
- iso1631 6y ago> Campus Police I went to a fairly large university in the UK, about 11k people on a self contained campus. I think there was a designated police officer for the university. I don't recall any security guards per-se, but there was a "porters" who looked after the main building, and there were a couple of bouncers checking ID on the on-campus bars (to stop townies from getting in) Is it not just normal police officers with perhaps some extra training on dealing with student matters?
- 6y ago
- RalfWausE 6y agoIts funny... in the past (up to the aftermath of 9/11) i wanted to visit the US, but the urge dropped significantly every year since then. Even more funny: As a totally "aryan" looking dude without any political involvement i would not even have problems getting there.
- growlist 6y agoI've been around a fair bit including a few trips across borders at which you'd expect a bit of a grilling, such as the Eastern Bloc before the fall of the Berlin Wall, and Israel; but nothing prepared me for the absolute aggressive rudeness of US immigration.
- stareatgoats 6y agoOne may lament the state of things in the US after 9/11, and be justified to so to some extent. The thing I want to lament however, is the near zero insight into the dynamics and logic of terrorism: in essence, that this is what terrorists want. Terrorists want to strike fear into normal citizens so that they ask for revenge - and more protection. Which results in draconian measures that paves way for authoritarianism which leads to more recruits for the terrorists (on all sides). And so a vicious circle takes off. We are being played, essentially. In some distant future maybe this logic could be taught in primary schools, so that society could be forever inoculated. Sadly such a vaccine seems a long way off.
- fegu 6y agoAs most I have only anecdotal evidence for border police differences. But I do still sometimes think about how it once took 4 hours of queueing with no toilet no water and a sign that said no mobile phone use to get in to the US at Newark (after thorough passport examinations), while in Iran that same year there was no queue and a smile and a wave. I am a white Scandinavian.
- ciconia 6y agoI have been mostly flying to visit my family who live in another country, but in the last 10 years flying has become such an unpleasant experience, even when not being singled-out by airport security. Actually, with the current crisis going on I am quite content about not having to deal with going on a plane again. I mean, airports are such hostile places, it feels like you're just a chunk of meat going through a meat grinder. As others here have remarked, it wasn't always like that, but then again, people haven't been flying that often, so maybe scale has something to with it as well.
- mnm1 6y agoInteresting how the TSA pretends it is police when it isn't. Also interesting the level of stupidity and incompetence shown by every asshole of every organization involved. Perhaps people are starting to see now, thanks to BLM, that law enforcement is made up of extreme assholes who enjoy cruelty and hate. Not just cops but even non law enforcement organizations with power like the TSA. It's built into the culture, this sick power-hungry drive to hurt and control others so that one can feel superior. Even the airline agent displays it because of that. I doubt there are many people in power in the US who don't display this. Certainly have never met any myself.