8 ms·

I hate to keep saying "I told you so" but I've had many conversations at Oculus Connect & elsewhere about the abject failure of 3DoF with few people seriously c

I hate to keep saying "I told you so" but I've had many conversations at Oculus Connect & elsewhere about the abject failure of 3DoF with few people seriously considering that the market has spoken. 6DoF standalone VR is the minimum bar for success with spacial computing. Forget 3DoF & AR. Focus on what's growing and retentive. That's 6DoF VR standalones and currently Quest is king.

didgeoridoo 6y ago
I'd go so far as to say 3DoF was a massive setback for popular perceptions of VR. Low-resolution spherical imagery and video is just not that impressive, and that's all you get with 3DoF. Contrast with the presence and immersion you get with even the cheapest 6DoF headsets, and it's not even the same technology category. So, now we have a bunch of people walking around thinking they "tried VR" because they had a Gear or a Go or a Cardboard, but they didn't get what the big deal was about.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  The latest vive changed my mind on VR. I guess I’m in that cohort
  - dgellow 6y ago
    What does it bring?
- shafyy 6y ago
  I think there are huge differences between Cardboard, Gear and Go. I believe the Go was a good step to get many people into VR in the first place. I know it pulled me in. But now is a good time to move on.
  - freehunter 6y ago
    I agree. I bought a Go on Black Friday for under $100 and it impressed me so much for such a low cost that I’m looking for a “real” VR headset. Unfortunately it seems I started looking just as companies stopped making any affordable 6dof headsets and the jump from $100 for the Go to $1000 for the only currently available VR headset is just too much for me so I’ll be waiting a bit longer. But dipping my toes in the water definitely whetted my appetite for more.
    - zlsa 6y ago
      The Oculus Rift S and Oculus Quest are both in active production; they're just usually sold out (as is the Valve Index, presumably being the $1000 headset you're referring to.)
    - esyir 6y ago
      $400 for the rift S/Quest are nowhere near $1000 though. As a Quest owner, I'll say that I've been pretty happy with it.
- Impossible 6y ago
  Yes, 3DOF was a gimmick and lead to the perception that VR was another 3DTV waiting to happen. Turns out "VR" is, 3DOF devices and phone holder VR of the mid-2010s had a similar adoption and failure curve as 3DTV. I didn't really get excited about VR until I tried Vive, as tracked controllers are important also.
  - dylan-m 6y ago
    I bet there are a large number of people who have felt sick because of 3DOF "VR", as well, and have since written off VR because they don't want to feel sick again. Having a system that ignores most of your movements but not all of them is a recipe for motion sickness, even if it _is_ running at 90 frames per second. Developers at Oculus and elsewhere have poured tons of energy into solving that with stuff like Asynchronous Spacewarp, where the goal is to respond to every little movement your body makes as soon as possible. As it turns out, this is really important. And I think we've all learned here that simply having hands is huge. (It doesn't even matter if they do anything: being able to see your hands is immediately reassuring). So it's really sad to me that the product people went on to ignore (might even say sabotage) that effort with the Go.
- lmm 6y ago
  Funnily enough I had the opposite experience. 3D spherical video made a lot of sense and I could immediately see the point. I still use my Gear VR pretty regularly. Meanwhile my expensive fancy headset sits gathering dust because it's just too much faff to get everything set up and use it, and the overall experience isn't really much better.
  - osobo 6y ago
    I recognize your point of view. For me the Quest was a game changer. Just press the power button and you are ready to go. Even your previous boundary settings are retained. Just step into the circle and fly.
SubiculumCode 6y ago
I just opened up my new O. Quest last night...and I'm blown away. This is the future.
- k__ 6y ago
  Yes, it's pretty awesome tech. Got one a week ago too. But the content is a bit lacking right now...
  - air7 6y ago
    I'm getting mine in a few days and I'm very excited. Can you recommend some jaw dropping content to try on it?
    - toby 6y ago
      Personally I still think beat saber is the best combo of easy to figure out plus completely engaging (i.e. you forget where you actually are)
      - SubiculumCode 6y ago
        IdK. Space Pirate Trainer is like the arcade shooter game a lot of us X gens dreamed of as kids. So much fun.
        toby 6y ago
        Agreed, that's another easy one to jump into. Love it also.
      - k__ 6y ago
        Beatsaber is really nice, it's the first and only game I bought right now. But it's not jaw dropping. It's like para para or dance dance revolution, but a bit more imersive.
        toby 6y ago
toby 6y ago
Completely agree. I was wholly unimpressed with "VR" until I got a Quest and now I think it's a shame that 3DoF ever pitched as such.
- baby 6y ago
  I think people are being a bit harsh on the Go, I still thought it was really cool and I got family and friends to try some VR experience for cheap. There is no denying that the Quest is light year ahead.
throwaway9468 6y ago
that's like saying dos was a mistake because MS should have just developed xp instead. of course 6dof is better than 3dof - that's obvious - but that is also a question of how expensive computing power is. Quest is simply the next iteration of Go - so obviously they'll sunset Go at some point. The way you sound it seems like you think you split the atom or something.
- Impossible 6y ago
  You're right that 3DOF needed to exist before 6DOF, which is a much harder problem to solve, doubly so for inside-out. But, PCVR entirely skipped 3DOF as a consumer product, and even though Rift shipped without touch controllers it had tracked controllers 6 months after launch. Early 3DOF mobile VR was an attempt at getting more users, without actually thinking about the user experience. Early mobile VR advertisements (for Gear VR or Daydream), had people using 3DOF VR headsets like they were standalone 6DOF headsets with full hand-tracking. People walking around their hands in front of the HMD, etc. Marketers knew how the device should work, it actually wouldn't be insane to say the device that people want is 3-5 years out and not release 3DOF hardware
- jobigoud 6y ago
  At the same time the Go was on the market Lenovo had a 6DoF standalone headset working on Google Daydream.
  - shafyy 6y ago
    That nobody was buying, because of the lacking fidelty, ease of use, price point and missing software ecosystem.
pj_mukh 6y ago
"Forget 3DoF & AR" Sidenote, Quest will be mixing between AR and VR [1]. Maybe it'll take a hardware revision to really bring it to the fore, but the future of AR/VR are quite blurred. [1]: https://tech.fb.com/the-future-of-work-and-the-next-computing-platform/ https://tech.fb.com/the-future-of-work-and-the-next-computin...
- k__ 6y ago
  The cameras are too crappy for that right now.
- jimmySixDOF 6y ago
  Passthrough in high end VR will become the early experience of where Magic Leap / Hololense should be in a few generations (AR with wide FOV, High Def Egocentric 360 SLAM, etc). That hardware is almost available (see Qualcomm XR2 specs [1]). This comes with all the high end VR HMD limitations like compute tethering, physical footprint, & mobility issues - but it will have early productivity applications. The blurring of AR/VR/XR/EtcR will be felt less where hardware formats are lightweight low cost like Quest or xyzGlasses [1] https://www.roadtovr.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-xr2-5g-announcement/ https://www.roadtovr.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-xr2-5g-announce...
  - mortenjorck 6y ago
    I think the big surprise in the next few years is going to be Apple coming out of left field and taking the lead in the hybrid AR/VR space. Why Apple? Think about the level of software-hardware integration for the camera in the past few generations of iPhones. Imagine that expertise being channeled into an ultra-low latency, 90fps passthrough pipeline combined with exhaustive research on optical distortion, perceptual FOV, etc, and then layering the existing SLAM of ARKit on top of it, advanced by another generation or two. Apple may well realize the original Magic Leap concept videos before Magic Leap does.
    - marrone12 6y ago
      There was an article recently in Bloomberg on the internal, political struggles the AR/VR team at Apple had with other executives. Seems like it is struggling. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-19/apple-team-working-on-vr-and-ar-headset-and-ar-glasses?sref=ExbtjcSG https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-19/apple-tea...
jachee 6y ago
I'm slightly perturbed that I picked up a Rift S instead of something else. I feel like Facebook^WOculus has it next on their list of abandonware, and the vendor lock-in feels heavier by the day. No OVR stuff, Can't run anything without the Oculus Store app open, etc.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Same. But between the quest and a rift S, I would certainly pick the latter. The quest wasn't for me, it just doesn't do enough on its own (bought the quest first because I didn't know the disadvantages). You can theoretically connect your PC too, but that is finicky. The rift S was fun for a time, but the lock-in is disastrous, but far worse for the quest. Typical for "modern" software, but VR landed in a corner like many other attempt before. It can be fun for a time though. The first time people are very impressed with VR, but it is just too much effort for regular use. Even in games like Elite, which has really good VR support, I returned to my flat screen after a while. Nice to find you coffee mug, be able to find your phone... I have "see-through" mapped to a button, but you still feel caged.
jansan 6y ago
I am a complete newbie in VR. We had a Quest borrowed by a friend a few weeks back, when my family was in quarantine. Playing Superhot was a lot of fun, but it became next level shit when we tried it in our basement, where we have a huge empty 40m² room. It was absolutely insane, moving through the room, around opponents. This was it! So yeah, 3DoF is not what we need. Give me 6DoF, a lighter headset and a wider angle of view, and I will spend the rest of my life in our basement :)

didgeoridoo 6y ago

I'd go so far as to say 3DoF was a massive setback for popular perceptions of VR. Low-resolution spherical imagery and video is just not that impressive, and that's all you get with 3DoF. Contrast with the presence and immersion you get with even the cheapest 6DoF headsets, and it's not even the same technology category. So, now we have a bunch of people walking around thinking they "tried VR" because they had a Gear or a Go or a Cardboard, but they didn't get what the big deal was about.

rorykoehler 6y ago
The latest vive changed my mind on VR. I guess I’m in that cohort
- dgellow 6y ago
  What does it bring?
shafyy 6y ago
I think there are huge differences between Cardboard, Gear and Go. I believe the Go was a good step to get many people into VR in the first place. I know it pulled me in. But now is a good time to move on.
- freehunter 6y ago
  I agree. I bought a Go on Black Friday for under $100 and it impressed me so much for such a low cost that I’m looking for a “real” VR headset. Unfortunately it seems I started looking just as companies stopped making any affordable 6dof headsets and the jump from $100 for the Go to $1000 for the only currently available VR headset is just too much for me so I’ll be waiting a bit longer. But dipping my toes in the water definitely whetted my appetite for more.
  - zlsa 6y ago
    The Oculus Rift S and Oculus Quest are both in active production; they're just usually sold out (as is the Valve Index, presumably being the $1000 headset you're referring to.)
  - esyir 6y ago
    $400 for the rift S/Quest are nowhere near $1000 though. As a Quest owner, I'll say that I've been pretty happy with it.
Impossible 6y ago
Yes, 3DOF was a gimmick and lead to the perception that VR was another 3DTV waiting to happen. Turns out "VR" is, 3DOF devices and phone holder VR of the mid-2010s had a similar adoption and failure curve as 3DTV. I didn't really get excited about VR until I tried Vive, as tracked controllers are important also.
- dylan-m 6y ago
  I bet there are a large number of people who have felt sick because of 3DOF "VR", as well, and have since written off VR because they don't want to feel sick again. Having a system that ignores most of your movements but not all of them is a recipe for motion sickness, even if it _is_ running at 90 frames per second. Developers at Oculus and elsewhere have poured tons of energy into solving that with stuff like Asynchronous Spacewarp, where the goal is to respond to every little movement your body makes as soon as possible. As it turns out, this is really important. And I think we've all learned here that simply having hands is huge. (It doesn't even matter if they do anything: being able to see your hands is immediately reassuring). So it's really sad to me that the product people went on to ignore (might even say sabotage) that effort with the Go.
lmm 6y ago
Funnily enough I had the opposite experience. 3D spherical video made a lot of sense and I could immediately see the point. I still use my Gear VR pretty regularly. Meanwhile my expensive fancy headset sits gathering dust because it's just too much faff to get everything set up and use it, and the overall experience isn't really much better.
- osobo 6y ago
  I recognize your point of view. For me the Quest was a game changer. Just press the power button and you are ready to go. Even your previous boundary settings are retained. Just step into the circle and fly.

SubiculumCode 6y ago

I just opened up my new O. Quest last night...and I'm blown away. This is the future.

k__ 6y ago
Yes, it's pretty awesome tech. Got one a week ago too. But the content is a bit lacking right now...
- air7 6y ago
  I'm getting mine in a few days and I'm very excited. Can you recommend some jaw dropping content to try on it?
  - toby 6y ago
    Personally I still think beat saber is the best combo of easy to figure out plus completely engaging (i.e. you forget where you actually are)
    - SubiculumCode 6y ago
      IdK. Space Pirate Trainer is like the arcade shooter game a lot of us X gens dreamed of as kids. So much fun.
      - toby 6y ago
        Agreed, that's another easy one to jump into. Love it also.
    - k__ 6y ago
      Beatsaber is really nice, it's the first and only game I bought right now. But it's not jaw dropping. It's like para para or dance dance revolution, but a bit more imersive.
      - toby 6y ago

toby 6y ago

Completely agree. I was wholly unimpressed with "VR" until I got a Quest and now I think it's a shame that 3DoF ever pitched as such.

baby 6y ago
I think people are being a bit harsh on the Go, I still thought it was really cool and I got family and friends to try some VR experience for cheap. There is no denying that the Quest is light year ahead.

throwaway9468 6y ago

that's like saying dos was a mistake because MS should have just developed xp instead. of course 6dof is better than 3dof - that's obvious - but that is also a question of how expensive computing power is. Quest is simply the next iteration of Go - so obviously they'll sunset Go at some point. The way you sound it seems like you think you split the atom or something.

Impossible 6y ago
You're right that 3DOF needed to exist before 6DOF, which is a much harder problem to solve, doubly so for inside-out. But, PCVR entirely skipped 3DOF as a consumer product, and even though Rift shipped without touch controllers it had tracked controllers 6 months after launch. Early 3DOF mobile VR was an attempt at getting more users, without actually thinking about the user experience. Early mobile VR advertisements (for Gear VR or Daydream), had people using 3DOF VR headsets like they were standalone 6DOF headsets with full hand-tracking. People walking around their hands in front of the HMD, etc. Marketers knew how the device should work, it actually wouldn't be insane to say the device that people want is 3-5 years out and not release 3DOF hardware
jobigoud 6y ago
At the same time the Go was on the market Lenovo had a 6DoF standalone headset working on Google Daydream.
- shafyy 6y ago
  That nobody was buying, because of the lacking fidelty, ease of use, price point and missing software ecosystem.

pj_mukh 6y ago

"Forget 3DoF & AR" Sidenote, Quest will be mixing between AR and VR [1]. Maybe it'll take a hardware revision to really bring it to the fore, but the future of AR/VR are quite blurred. [1]: https://tech.fb.com/the-future-of-work-and-the-next-computing-platform/ https://tech.fb.com/the-future-of-work-and-the-next-computin...

k__ 6y ago
The cameras are too crappy for that right now.
jimmySixDOF 6y ago
Passthrough in high end VR will become the early experience of where Magic Leap / Hololense should be in a few generations (AR with wide FOV, High Def Egocentric 360 SLAM, etc). That hardware is almost available (see Qualcomm XR2 specs [1]). This comes with all the high end VR HMD limitations like compute tethering, physical footprint, & mobility issues - but it will have early productivity applications. The blurring of AR/VR/XR/EtcR will be felt less where hardware formats are lightweight low cost like Quest or xyzGlasses [1] https://www.roadtovr.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-xr2-5g-announcement/ https://www.roadtovr.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-xr2-5g-announce...
- mortenjorck 6y ago
  I think the big surprise in the next few years is going to be Apple coming out of left field and taking the lead in the hybrid AR/VR space. Why Apple? Think about the level of software-hardware integration for the camera in the past few generations of iPhones. Imagine that expertise being channeled into an ultra-low latency, 90fps passthrough pipeline combined with exhaustive research on optical distortion, perceptual FOV, etc, and then layering the existing SLAM of ARKit on top of it, advanced by another generation or two. Apple may well realize the original Magic Leap concept videos before Magic Leap does.
  - marrone12 6y ago
    There was an article recently in Bloomberg on the internal, political struggles the AR/VR team at Apple had with other executives. Seems like it is struggling. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-19/apple-team-working-on-vr-and-ar-headset-and-ar-glasses?sref=ExbtjcSG https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-19/apple-tea...

jachee 6y ago

I'm slightly perturbed that I picked up a Rift S instead of something else. I feel like Facebook^WOculus has it next on their list of abandonware, and the vendor lock-in feels heavier by the day. No OVR stuff, Can't run anything without the Oculus Store app open, etc.

raxxorrax 6y ago
Same. But between the quest and a rift S, I would certainly pick the latter. The quest wasn't for me, it just doesn't do enough on its own (bought the quest first because I didn't know the disadvantages). You can theoretically connect your PC too, but that is finicky. The rift S was fun for a time, but the lock-in is disastrous, but far worse for the quest. Typical for "modern" software, but VR landed in a corner like many other attempt before. It can be fun for a time though. The first time people are very impressed with VR, but it is just too much effort for regular use. Even in games like Elite, which has really good VR support, I returned to my flat screen after a while. Nice to find you coffee mug, be able to find your phone... I have "see-through" mapped to a button, but you still feel caged.

jansan 6y ago

I am a complete newbie in VR. We had a Quest borrowed by a friend a few weeks back, when my family was in quarantine. Playing Superhot was a lot of fun, but it became next level shit when we tried it in our basement, where we have a huge empty 40m² room. It was absolutely insane, moving through the room, around opponents. This was it! So yeah, 3DoF is not what we need. Give me 6DoF, a lighter headset and a wider angle of view, and I will spend the rest of my life in our basement :)