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I am a developer and power user. I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple. Unix with good design is exactly what I want from my OS. Sure I can't disa

I am a developer and power user. I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple. Unix with good design is exactly what I want from my OS. Sure I can't disassemble my laptop and change the hardware. I have no desire at all to do that. I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this, although I imagine there are a tiny fraction of users who would and you may be among them.

sudosysgen 6y ago
Easy. A new application you have needs more RAM. Your battery is not holding up very well and you want to replace it. Your SSD will fail soon and you want to replace it. I had every single one of those issues on a laptop, and fixing them cost me from 25$ to 100$, about a fifth of what the Apple Store or OEM was quoting me. Instead of being without my laptop for a week or two, I got all of them over in an hour and a half tops. Everyone has a device fail them. Then you have the choice of changing it or repairing it, repair is almost always a better option if you're at all technically competent. I can't imagine my SSD breaking down or my RAM failing and having to change the entire mainboard when I could just take 45 minutes and fix it. It's literally absurd to me.
- dsr_ 6y ago
  All that, and also -- Apple sets prices about once a year. Meanwhile, the price of CPUs, RAM and graphics cards drops. For any price level that Apple establishes, I can afford a Hackintosh desktop of much greater power or I can save a lot of money and get equivalent power. Though, to be honest, I don't bother unless there's a particular application which isn't available on Linux.
  - xattt 6y ago
    Photoshop
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      Runs on WINE or in a Windows virtual machine. The latter works fine for me.
      - spease 6y ago
        Premiere Final Cut Pro
        wayneftw 6y ago
        That’s it? Great! Sounds like non-iOS software developers that are stuck on macOS can just hop right off without any problem whatsoever...
  - metalforever 6y ago
    Hackintosh is a non starter if you are using the computer for commercial use.
    - dsr_ 6y ago
      Turns out there are some very small niches where it makes sense. Basically, if you need to maintain compatibility with a larger organization but your profit is independent from theirs, and you have necessary technical resources at hand.
      - stevenwliao 6y ago
        and you don't mind violating the licensing agreement.
- oneplane 6y ago
  Your scenario definitely exists, but it also doesn't hit the likes of the user you respond to as much as you might expect. SSD's don't fail the way they used to, RAM requirements don't change as much as it used to and while batteries do die, at this time I've seen more people switch machines before any of that happens. The last time I wanted or needed to replace memory or storage in a laptop must have been 7 years ago, and I don't see anyone else doing that either. Even desktop upgrades are somewhat dead at this point, except for a GPU upgrade if someone is a gamer, or storage upgrade if people still use direct attached storage and didn't get enough when they initially got the machine. Just because a scenario that hits a small percentage of DIY users is getting hard doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else as well.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    If SSDs don't fail, more RAM isn't needed, and so on, then why do people feel the need to buy a new laptop every three years? I think the percentage of users that would buy a new, 1500$+ machine instead of a small 100$ upgrade is much lower than one expects living in a bit of an echo chamber. There's a lot of people that get burned by outrageous repair prices or that buy new computers when they could simply upgrade a part. Ask yourself; if you've never felt the need to upgrade a laptop or to replace a break, then why really would you upgrade?
    - oneplane 6y ago
      Because the overall degradation. Sometimes I want 10% of 'everything', plus a new feature, plus less weight to carry around. That's practically been the only driver of my personal upgrades over the last 15 years. And by degradation I don't mean the existing device degrades per se, but the degradation of productivity on the current device vs. new device. At the same time, the way work is done has changed a lot for me and the people around me: heavy workloads are almost never done on a laptop anymore.
      - the_af 6y ago
        > but the degradation of productivity on the current device vs. new device. What does this mean? Do you mean your current device starts working poorly (but that would mean "existing device degrades per se", which you ruled out) or that the existence of a new device automatically makes you perceive your device as being of "degraded productivity"?
- alkonaut 6y ago
  Did Apple start using soldered on storage or RAM for (non-air) Macbooks?
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure the MBPs have had soldered-on components for quite a few years now.
  - rdslw 6y ago
    Is it you Elon? DId you return from a few years trip to Mars? ;)
    - alkonaut 6y ago
      Lol I have never heard this. For me mbp=sodimm and easily replaceable drive while air is soldered on! What year did it change? I swapped my hdd for an ssd and upgraded the ram in my current mbp (which is a Sandy Bridge...)
fsflover 6y ago
Changing the hardware or software yourself is not the point. The point is the monopoly of the manufacturer to repair and modify with huge negative consequences. The lack of right to modify the software leads to unjust power over users [0,1], while the lack of ability to repair hardware leads to unreasonable repair prices, monopoly and environmental damage [2]. [0] https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor... [2] https://www.ifixit.com/Right-to-Repair/Intro https://www.ifixit.com/Right-to-Repair/Intro
- oneplane 6y ago
  No, that isn't the point either. The point is happy users, and there will always be some unhappy users because they wanted to do something that isn't supported or actively barred. Throwing in words like 'right' and 'unjust' helps in movements and call to action etc, but in this context it's about someone turning on their device, doing some work, and turning it off again.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    What you are saying is the same thing. “Unhappy users” are unhappy because of lack of the freedoms I mentioned. One has to fight for them.
  - Voloskaya 6y ago
    Considering the environmental damages that this causes it should indeed be a right.
  - oneplane 6y ago
    Since I can't reply to the replies, I'll reply to myself: All of those points are fine, but they are points separate from a user using a device. If you want it for environmental reasons, say that. If you want it for freedom, say that. Both are valid reasons but don't have anything to do with someone using their machine, unless that 'usage' mains doing stuff with the insides. And before someone jumps in to tell that that is the main activity: great, but most people buy those machines to do work that doesn't entail opening it up.
Voloskaya 6y ago
> I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this If you personnaly care a little bit about the environment there is a pretty evident reason why being able to swap a single piece of hardware is better than replacing the whole unit because everything is soldered together. Right to repair would also mean that once your device goes out of guarantee you would have more options to get your device repaired for cheaper.
- oneplane 6y ago
  You assume that people have to throw away millions of laptops, but his comment (and mine) refer to the fact that a recent laptop works fine for 6+ years as-is. The lifecycle doesn't shorten but the need to toy with the innards has gone away for a lot of people.
  - Voloskaya 6y ago
    > You assume that people have to throw away millions of laptops Hmm yes I do: https://twitter.com/RDKLInc/status/1275100376350384132 https://twitter.com/RDKLInc/status/1275100376350384132 Have you also never had anyone you know spilling liquid on their keyboard after the warranty expired? Or dropped it? So in the end yes, I am pretty sure that there are literal millions of devices being thrown away because repairing them is too expensive. Edit: I'll also add that in 6 years using a mac, Apple replaced my macbook entirely twice for some issue that you would hope could be fixed without throwing everything away. So, sure, the customer is happy because they got a brand new device. But personnally I would rather stick with my 1 year old device and reduce environmental impact.
    - oneplane 6y ago
      Those are not laptops, those are iPads, which weren't modular to begin with. Also, not broken, but locked, because the previous owner didn't unlock them before discarding them. Are there millions of devices that get thrown away in general? Sure. But I doubt it's only devices with RAM that was soldered down and branded Apple. Regarding spilling on keyboards: I don't know anyone personally who does that, in my local area people don't eat or drink next to their devices. I do have plenty of people I don't personally know that did ruin their computers that way and I have replaced plenty of Apple keyboards and entire topcases to solve it. Works fine as a side-business. Repairing is not the same as upgrading, and recycling is not the same as throwing away, and neither is reusing. The difference is important, as the solution changes with the case. Overall, this would be more fitting in a general discussion on environmental impact and not as much one about software, the hardware it runs on, and human behaviour. If you want to solve a big problem you need to generify instead of brand it as far as I know. To dive in a little deeper: to 'fix' this, people need to spend less time on how beautiful their stuff is, or how cool they look, and go a more utilitarian route. But since the American economy is built around the opposite and the western European one has the tendency to follow it in some aspects that's unlikely to happy any time soon. Changing people is hard, it's also the best way to solve or fix or change anything.
xigency 6y ago
> I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple. You are happy with the sluggishness in Catalina from security checks over the network before running applications? > Sure I can't disassemble my laptop and change the hardware. I have no desire at all to do that. I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this The cost of repair is higher because independent shops cannot repair the boards anymore or recover data when your storage, memory, and everything else is soldered directly to the board. I don't doubt that you enjoy the platform, but I would be hard pressed to say that I would be happy with everything from any tech company.
dm319 6y ago
This makes no sense! Storage and RAM requirements have steadily increased, and costs have gone down dramatically. On the other hand, keyboard technology has not improved massively, and CPU speeds aren't significantly different.
- cuddlybacon 6y ago
  I'm not bottlenecked on those components. I think on my 2016 MacBook at home, the only time I get bottlenecked on performance is CPU while playing EU4. Oddly, all the powerusery stuff I do could probably be done equally well on a 10 year old device if it wasn't for USB-C.
wwweston 6y ago
> I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this Being able to swap out RAM and storage and battery from factory-provided can extend the lifetime (and even increase the performance capacity) of a given machine at nothing more than the cost of the new parts. And Apple used to make it pretty easy to do this, and enough people did that there was a subeconomy of vendors selling for this purpose, although of course there were full-service options for people who literally couldn't imagine doing it themselves. This also meant that downtime wasn't controlled by Apple Store service availability (literally had a drive fail on me once, had my bootable backup, swapped it into the machine, good to go). And on a number of occasions I've done more complex replacements, a DVD drive here, a keyboard there. I can see why most people wouldn't want to do those, they're a giant pain, but having the option can be empowering. What's actually hard to think of, if one is thinking, is what Apple has gained in return for this. I can kinda squint and see that irregular (and therefore, perhaps, less efficiently swappable) battery shapes have some credible advantages, but the rest of the marginal ounce-gains and dimensional-golf scores belong to a category of diminishing returns.
- thatwasunusual 6y ago
  > Being able to swap out RAM and storage and battery from factory-provided can extend the lifetime (and even increase the performance capacity) of a given machine at nothing more than the cost of the new parts. While that is true, how many users of any kind of device actually considers that an option these days?
- chongli 6y ago
  Being able to swap out RAM and storage and battery from factory-provided can extend the lifetime (and even increase the performance capacity) of a given machine at nothing more than the cost of the new parts. It isn't just the cost of new parts. It's also the cost of those parts being larger in order to accommodate user-accessibility and replacement. When everything is surface-mounted on the PCB it can be made a lot smaller. This allows Apple to shrink the laptop as well as allocate more space for the battery. No one is asking for phones where we can swap out the RAM and storage. Why do we want this from laptops? I'm typing this on a 2020 Air which I configured with 16GB of RAM and a 1TB SSD. I really don't anticipate a need to upgrade either of these things before the machine reaches end of life anyway.
webmobdev 6y ago
> I am a developer and power user ... Sure I can't disassemble my laptop and change the hardware. I have no desire at all to do that. That's a lie. Every power user tries to get the most out of their machine, and so desires an upgradeable system. No power user likes to throw away a system because s/he can't replace its battery or upgrade its ram or hdd / ssd. At some point, everyone likes to upgrade their existing system without spending a gazillion bucks for it. Yes, it is true that with phones and tablets, corporates like Apple and Samsung have managed to convince the general mass that not being able to upgrade your phone or tablet is a NORMAL thing, and soldered RAM and soldered SSD are the only option, but we power users know that's a lie that Apple and Samsung (and others) would like us to believe. And that is why their marketing is heavily based to push the exact message you are parroting: > I imagine there are a tiny fraction of users who would and you may be among them. I can bet that even if someone is not a poweruser, and an ordinary consumer / user, they too would appreciate the option to upgrade their phones / systems and reuse it. That is why we have efforts like the PuzzlePhone in europe.
- danaris 6y ago
  Wow. He doesn't want to disassemble his laptop, so he's lying about being a power user? Have you ever heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy?
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    You don't need to disassemble a modern laptop or a PC to upgrade RAM, battery or HDD. Only most Apple systems need such crude and difficult disassembling to do such simple tasks of replacing these parts because they are deliberately designed like that.
- kelnos 6y ago
  Hell, even an average user would likely appreciate being able to bring their laptop to the local repair shop, give them $200, and walk out with the same laptop, but with more RAM, storage, and a new battery. The only current option is to drop $1500 on a the new model. It's not only more expensive, but wasteful. I guess there are a lot of younger folks around here nowadays, but it was perfectly normal in the 90s and early 00s for regular non-technical home users to get out a screwdriver, open up their desktop PC, and replace the RAM, add a new/larger HDD, add a CD/DVD drive, even swap out or add a graphics or sound card. And there was a perfectly functioning computer shop industry that would do that for you on the cheap if you weren't comfortable. In the past 15-20 years manufacturers have gotten us into the cycle of buy->discard->replace to the point that people don't even know it was ever different.
AlexandrB 6y ago
For me the problem can be summed up as: "Every new MacOS release has less Unix and poorer (for a power user) design". Apple has been slowly whittling away at the MacOS value proposition for developers.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  > Apple has been slowly whittling away at the MacOS value proposition for developers. Yes, I think the success of the iDevices have made them change focus. They are no longer interested in making devices for the power user. They now make more money selling iDevices, especially recurrent revenue. And so the ignorant consumers are now their target market.
pmontra 6y ago
I upgraded my current laptop from 8 to 16 GB to 32 since 2014. I replaced the 750 GB HDD with 1 TB SDD. Then I replaced the DVD with another 1 TB SDD. It was as easy as slide the bottom out, loose a couple of screws and that's it. Ok, I concede that replacing a worn out keyboard was not as easy as on YouTube but I like serviceable hardware.
kenOfYugen 6y ago
> I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple. I am incredibly disappointed with every update from Apple. I bought my MacBook Pro in 2011. The most basic 13.3" machine that was available for sale. 320GB 5400RPM HDD, i5, 4GB RAM, Intel graphics. I like backups. The optical drive had to go, I put it in an external USB enclosure. It was replaced by the HDD and in its place I put a Samsung SSD. The HDD contains my data archives and a macOS installation image. Whenever macOS would become cluttered, I would wipe the SSD and enjoy a fresh macOS installation. Whenever a new macOS version would be released, I would update the installation image. This enabled me to work on the go with no fear of data loss and no network dependencies. SSDs are basically long lasting consumables. I had to painlessly replace the drive twice, however each time I got a faster and more robust unit with enhanced capacity. Sure I can carry an external drive with me. I have no desire at all to do that. I like the mini jack, so that I can plug my favorite headphones. The audio-out port also doubles as an optical-out. Sure I can carry a couple of dongles with me. I have no desire at all to do that. Sure I could have bought the top of the line 8GB RAM model back in 2011. I had no desire at all to do that. I could just buy 16GB of RAM and perform an upgrade Apple claims is not supported. The battery lasts long enough. While coding, I get drained before the battery does. I can let the battery age with no fear of it bulging because it's contained in a shell. Replacement is easy. I totally get where you are coming from, and agree with you that "a tiny fraction of users" want access to the hardware. However 100% would want access to the hardware when their 16" MacBook Pro SSD goes. Don't professionals require machines that cater for their needs? If the current Apple offered choices like the ones I mentioned above, would you not pay a premium to have them? I certainly would. And for that reason I still rely the same 2011 MacBook Pro and not the latest MacBook GoodEnough.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Easy. A new application you have needs more RAM. Your battery is not holding up very well and you want to replace it. Your SSD will fail soon and you want to replace it. I had every single one of those issues on a laptop, and fixing them cost me from 25$ to 100$, about a fifth of what the Apple Store or OEM was quoting me. Instead of being without my laptop for a week or two, I got all of them over in an hour and a half tops. Everyone has a device fail them. Then you have the choice of changing it or repairing it, repair is almost always a better option if you're at all technically competent. I can't imagine my SSD breaking down or my RAM failing and having to change the entire mainboard when I could just take 45 minutes and fix it. It's literally absurd to me.

dsr_ 6y ago
All that, and also -- Apple sets prices about once a year. Meanwhile, the price of CPUs, RAM and graphics cards drops. For any price level that Apple establishes, I can afford a Hackintosh desktop of much greater power or I can save a lot of money and get equivalent power. Though, to be honest, I don't bother unless there's a particular application which isn't available on Linux.
- xattt 6y ago
  Photoshop
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    Runs on WINE or in a Windows virtual machine. The latter works fine for me.
    - spease 6y ago
      Premiere Final Cut Pro
      - wayneftw 6y ago
        That’s it? Great! Sounds like non-iOS software developers that are stuck on macOS can just hop right off without any problem whatsoever...
- metalforever 6y ago
  Hackintosh is a non starter if you are using the computer for commercial use.
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    Turns out there are some very small niches where it makes sense. Basically, if you need to maintain compatibility with a larger organization but your profit is independent from theirs, and you have necessary technical resources at hand.
    - stevenwliao 6y ago
      and you don't mind violating the licensing agreement.
oneplane 6y ago
Your scenario definitely exists, but it also doesn't hit the likes of the user you respond to as much as you might expect. SSD's don't fail the way they used to, RAM requirements don't change as much as it used to and while batteries do die, at this time I've seen more people switch machines before any of that happens. The last time I wanted or needed to replace memory or storage in a laptop must have been 7 years ago, and I don't see anyone else doing that either. Even desktop upgrades are somewhat dead at this point, except for a GPU upgrade if someone is a gamer, or storage upgrade if people still use direct attached storage and didn't get enough when they initially got the machine. Just because a scenario that hits a small percentage of DIY users is getting hard doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else as well.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  If SSDs don't fail, more RAM isn't needed, and so on, then why do people feel the need to buy a new laptop every three years? I think the percentage of users that would buy a new, 1500$+ machine instead of a small 100$ upgrade is much lower than one expects living in a bit of an echo chamber. There's a lot of people that get burned by outrageous repair prices or that buy new computers when they could simply upgrade a part. Ask yourself; if you've never felt the need to upgrade a laptop or to replace a break, then why really would you upgrade?
  - oneplane 6y ago
    Because the overall degradation. Sometimes I want 10% of 'everything', plus a new feature, plus less weight to carry around. That's practically been the only driver of my personal upgrades over the last 15 years. And by degradation I don't mean the existing device degrades per se, but the degradation of productivity on the current device vs. new device. At the same time, the way work is done has changed a lot for me and the people around me: heavy workloads are almost never done on a laptop anymore.
    - the_af 6y ago
      > but the degradation of productivity on the current device vs. new device. What does this mean? Do you mean your current device starts working poorly (but that would mean "existing device degrades per se", which you ruled out) or that the existence of a new device automatically makes you perceive your device as being of "degraded productivity"?
alkonaut 6y ago
Did Apple start using soldered on storage or RAM for (non-air) Macbooks?
- kelnos 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure the MBPs have had soldered-on components for quite a few years now.
- rdslw 6y ago
  Is it you Elon? DId you return from a few years trip to Mars? ;)
  - alkonaut 6y ago
    Lol I have never heard this. For me mbp=sodimm and easily replaceable drive while air is soldered on! What year did it change? I swapped my hdd for an ssd and upgraded the ram in my current mbp (which is a Sandy Bridge...)

fsflover 6y ago

Changing the hardware or software yourself is not the point. The point is the monopoly of the manufacturer to repair and modify with huge negative consequences. The lack of right to modify the software leads to unjust power over users [0,1], while the lack of ability to repair hardware leads to unreasonable repair prices, monopoly and environmental damage [2]. [0] https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor... [2] https://www.ifixit.com/Right-to-Repair/Intro https://www.ifixit.com/Right-to-Repair/Intro

oneplane 6y ago
No, that isn't the point either. The point is happy users, and there will always be some unhappy users because they wanted to do something that isn't supported or actively barred. Throwing in words like 'right' and 'unjust' helps in movements and call to action etc, but in this context it's about someone turning on their device, doing some work, and turning it off again.
- fsflover 6y ago
  What you are saying is the same thing. “Unhappy users” are unhappy because of lack of the freedoms I mentioned. One has to fight for them.
- Voloskaya 6y ago
  Considering the environmental damages that this causes it should indeed be a right.
- oneplane 6y ago
  Since I can't reply to the replies, I'll reply to myself: All of those points are fine, but they are points separate from a user using a device. If you want it for environmental reasons, say that. If you want it for freedom, say that. Both are valid reasons but don't have anything to do with someone using their machine, unless that 'usage' mains doing stuff with the insides. And before someone jumps in to tell that that is the main activity: great, but most people buy those machines to do work that doesn't entail opening it up.

Voloskaya 6y ago

> I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this If you personnaly care a little bit about the environment there is a pretty evident reason why being able to swap a single piece of hardware is better than replacing the whole unit because everything is soldered together. Right to repair would also mean that once your device goes out of guarantee you would have more options to get your device repaired for cheaper.

oneplane 6y ago
You assume that people have to throw away millions of laptops, but his comment (and mine) refer to the fact that a recent laptop works fine for 6+ years as-is. The lifecycle doesn't shorten but the need to toy with the innards has gone away for a lot of people.
- Voloskaya 6y ago
  > You assume that people have to throw away millions of laptops Hmm yes I do: https://twitter.com/RDKLInc/status/1275100376350384132 https://twitter.com/RDKLInc/status/1275100376350384132 Have you also never had anyone you know spilling liquid on their keyboard after the warranty expired? Or dropped it? So in the end yes, I am pretty sure that there are literal millions of devices being thrown away because repairing them is too expensive. Edit: I'll also add that in 6 years using a mac, Apple replaced my macbook entirely twice for some issue that you would hope could be fixed without throwing everything away. So, sure, the customer is happy because they got a brand new device. But personnally I would rather stick with my 1 year old device and reduce environmental impact.
  - oneplane 6y ago
    Those are not laptops, those are iPads, which weren't modular to begin with. Also, not broken, but locked, because the previous owner didn't unlock them before discarding them. Are there millions of devices that get thrown away in general? Sure. But I doubt it's only devices with RAM that was soldered down and branded Apple. Regarding spilling on keyboards: I don't know anyone personally who does that, in my local area people don't eat or drink next to their devices. I do have plenty of people I don't personally know that did ruin their computers that way and I have replaced plenty of Apple keyboards and entire topcases to solve it. Works fine as a side-business. Repairing is not the same as upgrading, and recycling is not the same as throwing away, and neither is reusing. The difference is important, as the solution changes with the case. Overall, this would be more fitting in a general discussion on environmental impact and not as much one about software, the hardware it runs on, and human behaviour. If you want to solve a big problem you need to generify instead of brand it as far as I know. To dive in a little deeper: to 'fix' this, people need to spend less time on how beautiful their stuff is, or how cool they look, and go a more utilitarian route. But since the American economy is built around the opposite and the western European one has the tendency to follow it in some aspects that's unlikely to happy any time soon. Changing people is hard, it's also the best way to solve or fix or change anything.

xigency 6y ago

> I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple. You are happy with the sluggishness in Catalina from security checks over the network before running applications? > Sure I can't disassemble my laptop and change the hardware. I have no desire at all to do that. I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this The cost of repair is higher because independent shops cannot repair the boards anymore or recover data when your storage, memory, and everything else is soldered directly to the board. I don't doubt that you enjoy the platform, but I would be hard pressed to say that I would be happy with everything from any tech company.

dm319 6y ago

This makes no sense! Storage and RAM requirements have steadily increased, and costs have gone down dramatically. On the other hand, keyboard technology has not improved massively, and CPU speeds aren't significantly different.

cuddlybacon 6y ago
I'm not bottlenecked on those components. I think on my 2016 MacBook at home, the only time I get bottlenecked on performance is CPU while playing EU4. Oddly, all the powerusery stuff I do could probably be done equally well on a 10 year old device if it wasn't for USB-C.

wwweston 6y ago

> I literally can think of no reason I personally would want to do this Being able to swap out RAM and storage and battery from factory-provided can extend the lifetime (and even increase the performance capacity) of a given machine at nothing more than the cost of the new parts. And Apple used to make it pretty easy to do this, and enough people did that there was a subeconomy of vendors selling for this purpose, although of course there were full-service options for people who literally couldn't imagine doing it themselves. This also meant that downtime wasn't controlled by Apple Store service availability (literally had a drive fail on me once, had my bootable backup, swapped it into the machine, good to go). And on a number of occasions I've done more complex replacements, a DVD drive here, a keyboard there. I can see why most people wouldn't want to do those, they're a giant pain, but having the option can be empowering. What's actually hard to think of, if one is thinking, is what Apple has gained in return for this. I can kinda squint and see that irregular (and therefore, perhaps, less efficiently swappable) battery shapes have some credible advantages, but the rest of the marginal ounce-gains and dimensional-golf scores belong to a category of diminishing returns.

thatwasunusual 6y ago
> Being able to swap out RAM and storage and battery from factory-provided can extend the lifetime (and even increase the performance capacity) of a given machine at nothing more than the cost of the new parts. While that is true, how many users of any kind of device actually considers that an option these days?
chongli 6y ago
Being able to swap out RAM and storage and battery from factory-provided can extend the lifetime (and even increase the performance capacity) of a given machine at nothing more than the cost of the new parts. It isn't just the cost of new parts. It's also the cost of those parts being larger in order to accommodate user-accessibility and replacement. When everything is surface-mounted on the PCB it can be made a lot smaller. This allows Apple to shrink the laptop as well as allocate more space for the battery. No one is asking for phones where we can swap out the RAM and storage. Why do we want this from laptops? I'm typing this on a 2020 Air which I configured with 16GB of RAM and a 1TB SSD. I really don't anticipate a need to upgrade either of these things before the machine reaches end of life anyway.

webmobdev 6y ago

> I am a developer and power user ... Sure I can't disassemble my laptop and change the hardware. I have no desire at all to do that. That's a lie. Every power user tries to get the most out of their machine, and so desires an upgradeable system. No power user likes to throw away a system because s/he can't replace its battery or upgrade its ram or hdd / ssd. At some point, everyone likes to upgrade their existing system without spending a gazillion bucks for it. Yes, it is true that with phones and tablets, corporates like Apple and Samsung have managed to convince the general mass that not being able to upgrade your phone or tablet is a NORMAL thing, and soldered RAM and soldered SSD are the only option, but we power users know that's a lie that Apple and Samsung (and others) would like us to believe. And that is why their marketing is heavily based to push the exact message you are parroting: > I imagine there are a tiny fraction of users who would and you may be among them. I can bet that even if someone is not a poweruser, and an ordinary consumer / user, they too would appreciate the option to upgrade their phones / systems and reuse it. That is why we have efforts like the PuzzlePhone in europe.

danaris 6y ago
Wow. He doesn't want to disassemble his laptop, so he's lying about being a power user? Have you ever heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy?
- webmobdev 6y ago
  You don't need to disassemble a modern laptop or a PC to upgrade RAM, battery or HDD. Only most Apple systems need such crude and difficult disassembling to do such simple tasks of replacing these parts because they are deliberately designed like that.
kelnos 6y ago
Hell, even an average user would likely appreciate being able to bring their laptop to the local repair shop, give them $200, and walk out with the same laptop, but with more RAM, storage, and a new battery. The only current option is to drop $1500 on a the new model. It's not only more expensive, but wasteful. I guess there are a lot of younger folks around here nowadays, but it was perfectly normal in the 90s and early 00s for regular non-technical home users to get out a screwdriver, open up their desktop PC, and replace the RAM, add a new/larger HDD, add a CD/DVD drive, even swap out or add a graphics or sound card. And there was a perfectly functioning computer shop industry that would do that for you on the cheap if you weren't comfortable. In the past 15-20 years manufacturers have gotten us into the cycle of buy->discard->replace to the point that people don't even know it was ever different.

AlexandrB 6y ago

For me the problem can be summed up as: "Every new MacOS release has less Unix and poorer (for a power user) design". Apple has been slowly whittling away at the MacOS value proposition for developers.

webmobdev 6y ago
> Apple has been slowly whittling away at the MacOS value proposition for developers. Yes, I think the success of the iDevices have made them change focus. They are no longer interested in making devices for the power user. They now make more money selling iDevices, especially recurrent revenue. And so the ignorant consumers are now their target market.

pmontra 6y ago

I upgraded my current laptop from 8 to 16 GB to 32 since 2014. I replaced the 750 GB HDD with 1 TB SDD. Then I replaced the DVD with another 1 TB SDD. It was as easy as slide the bottom out, loose a couple of screws and that's it. Ok, I concede that replacing a worn out keyboard was not as easy as on YouTube but I like serviceable hardware.

kenOfYugen 6y ago

> I am incredibly happy with every update from Apple. I am incredibly disappointed with every update from Apple. I bought my MacBook Pro in 2011. The most basic 13.3" machine that was available for sale. 320GB 5400RPM HDD, i5, 4GB RAM, Intel graphics. I like backups. The optical drive had to go, I put it in an external USB enclosure. It was replaced by the HDD and in its place I put a Samsung SSD. The HDD contains my data archives and a macOS installation image. Whenever macOS would become cluttered, I would wipe the SSD and enjoy a fresh macOS installation. Whenever a new macOS version would be released, I would update the installation image. This enabled me to work on the go with no fear of data loss and no network dependencies. SSDs are basically long lasting consumables. I had to painlessly replace the drive twice, however each time I got a faster and more robust unit with enhanced capacity. Sure I can carry an external drive with me. I have no desire at all to do that. I like the mini jack, so that I can plug my favorite headphones. The audio-out port also doubles as an optical-out. Sure I can carry a couple of dongles with me. I have no desire at all to do that. Sure I could have bought the top of the line 8GB RAM model back in 2011. I had no desire at all to do that. I could just buy 16GB of RAM and perform an upgrade Apple claims is not supported. The battery lasts long enough. While coding, I get drained before the battery does. I can let the battery age with no fear of it bulging because it's contained in a shell. Replacement is easy. I totally get where you are coming from, and agree with you that "a tiny fraction of users" want access to the hardware. However 100% would want access to the hardware when their 16" MacBook Pro SSD goes. Don't professionals require machines that cater for their needs? If the current Apple offered choices like the ones I mentioned above, would you not pay a premium to have them? I certainly would. And for that reason I still rely the same 2011 MacBook Pro and not the latest MacBook GoodEnough.