4 ms·

> Right now there's basically 0 downside/accountability which is why there's protests

systemvoltage 6y ago
How do you control huge crowds if they go violent, go into neighborhoods and start killing/robbing/raping ______ people? Edit: I am raising a hypothetical question which people are responding with the current reality. Yes, I know that it is not happening currently, which is why I am raising the what-if question. I've even left the race or sides off of the question to talk about the objective ways of dealing with a situation like this.
- paulmd 6y ago
  the point is that they are being used to suppress speech rather than control violent crowds. things usually don't get violent until the police escalate and start trying to disperse the crowds (which is unconstitutional but again, no accountability, which is exactly what's being protested). That's consistently been the pattern with the current wave of protests. When the police start kettling and tear-gassing and firing rubber bullets, things get violent. Where the police do their jobs and stand back and surgically remove instigators/violence, things stay peaceful. at the end of the day I don't think anyone disputes that these should be in police arsenals (as opposed to some of the heavier weaponry), but they shouldn't be used to suppress speech or demonstrations. There needs to be much more restraint with their use, and there needs to be way more oversight and accountability when they are used.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  When that becomes an issue, we'll address it. Police still have weapons and tools to address violence, but they shouldn't be bringing them to peaceful protests. Edit to address your edit: When you bring that question to the current discussion around the current police brutality, it appears that you are trying to draw a line between the two OR trying to reframe/divert the conversation. It's a common tactic used by trolls online (not saying you are trolling, but your question probably trigger the immune response many people have to trolls online.) If it's a serious question, I'd ask it on its own and see if you can get any engagement.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    I've been pretty careful about phrasing it as I know the trolls. But I am afraid that we cannot discuss all sides of the equation even though they are uncomfortable. This is the drowning of the voices, the chilling effect of a massive momentum where certain things will inevitably get tramped. Allowing discussion in a polite, unbiased manner should not be met with opposition, but with objective refutal if you have any. Just saying "When that becomes an issue, we'll address it" is inadequate as that just screams of going too far, removing law and order and turning this place into a total anarchy. Yes, this is the trolling narrative as well - I fully recognize it. I want peace in the world. Law and order and uplifting of the nation, a unification of both left and right into doing what's right for progress. Yes, we are stuck in chaos of echo chambers.
- aspaceman 6y ago
  You call in the national guard But no one is doing that? You have a bunch of peaceful protests that the police want to portray as looting and rioting so they can get out their jackboots and step on some throats.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    The National Guard is not a police force. It's a military organization. Calling them in for crowd control should be an absolute last resort. Yes, I realize the NG has MP units, but they don't have any super-powers or training that regular riot units in the police do not.
  - tw04 6y ago
    The National Guard is a military force. They aren't trained for non-lethal combat and quite frankly shouldn't be, that's not their job. Even if they WERE, it takes DAYS to get a unit online and ready to operate, that's not an acceptable timeline for a scenario in which Police would need to use non-lethal force.
- williamdclt 6y ago
  First, that seems to be far far less frequent than police force abuse. So infrequent that I don't think I've heard of mass-killing crowds in Europe/US in the past 15 years, that sounds more like a theoretical possibility. Second, you're answering somedy that calls for accountability. How does that prevent violent crowd control?
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    I don't think this is a theoretical possibility. There is a huge income inequality, the society is splitting 4-ways - top/bottom(social status and income) and left/right (political). As we get more polarized, there is a possibility of people starving and oppressed which will end up going on the left or right or top or bottom and creating havoc. 2020 is an unprecedented year so far. I don't agree that this is a theoretical possibility.
    - Boxbot 6y ago
      maybe you should be proposing hypothetical solutions to address the issues of income inequality and oppression instead of how hypothetically you would like to see masses of people gunned down in the streets
      - systemvoltage 6y ago
        I went to the protests myself and I support the cause. May be we should question all aspects of a problem, leave aside biases and understand the situation to make a better society? Getting rid of police control measures without proper authority is a good idea, but there should be reservations for when it's needed. I want to make sure those are not eroded or the society turns into something like Somalia. I also found your comment distasteful as it condemns my intent without substantiation. It is like calling someone with "obsession for murderous things". I take offense in that.
- ouid 6y ago
  The primary method is by building a society in which people, predominantly, have something to lose by doing so. The social contract is not some optional lofty ideal.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    Totally agree. > If there is righteousness in the heart, there will be beauty in the character. If there is beauty in the character, there will be harmony in the home. If there is harmony in the home, there will be order in the nations. When there is order in the nations, there will peace in the world. - Confucious
  - on_and_off 6y ago
    we will/would have to stop fucking over black people in America at all the corners for the social contract to have any meaning for them. (and we definitely need to do that)
- inetknght 6y ago
  The problems that the crowds are complaining about are very deeply rooted and cannot be summed up in a single social media post. I won't take the time to sit and lecture you. I can understand being overwhelmed if you're only now tuning in. But there's a ton of opinions and views if you'd only pay attention. Take the time to learn about the problems instead of reflexively whining that the police are the easiest/only solution. I'll leave you with two links from my own echo chamber. The last few words of John Oliver's Last Week Tonight from a few weeks ago are extremely relevant [0]. And, here's a story from someone who claims to be a former cop [1]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY&feature=youtu.be&t=1905 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY&feature=youtu.be... [1] https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard...
- pnutjam 6y ago
  Like this...? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre I think it would qualify for lethal force.

How do you control huge crowds if they go violent, go into neighborhoods and start killing/robbing/raping ______ people? Edit: I am raising a hypothetical question which people are responding with the current reality. Yes, I know that it is not happening currently, which is why I am raising the what-if question. I've even left the race or sides off of the question to talk about the objective ways of dealing with a situation like this.

paulmd 6y ago
the point is that they are being used to suppress speech rather than control violent crowds. things usually don't get violent until the police escalate and start trying to disperse the crowds (which is unconstitutional but again, no accountability, which is exactly what's being protested). That's consistently been the pattern with the current wave of protests. When the police start kettling and tear-gassing and firing rubber bullets, things get violent. Where the police do their jobs and stand back and surgically remove instigators/violence, things stay peaceful. at the end of the day I don't think anyone disputes that these should be in police arsenals (as opposed to some of the heavier weaponry), but they shouldn't be used to suppress speech or demonstrations. There needs to be much more restraint with their use, and there needs to be way more oversight and accountability when they are used.
Pfhreak 6y ago
When that becomes an issue, we'll address it. Police still have weapons and tools to address violence, but they shouldn't be bringing them to peaceful protests. Edit to address your edit: When you bring that question to the current discussion around the current police brutality, it appears that you are trying to draw a line between the two OR trying to reframe/divert the conversation. It's a common tactic used by trolls online (not saying you are trolling, but your question probably trigger the immune response many people have to trolls online.) If it's a serious question, I'd ask it on its own and see if you can get any engagement.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  I've been pretty careful about phrasing it as I know the trolls. But I am afraid that we cannot discuss all sides of the equation even though they are uncomfortable. This is the drowning of the voices, the chilling effect of a massive momentum where certain things will inevitably get tramped. Allowing discussion in a polite, unbiased manner should not be met with opposition, but with objective refutal if you have any. Just saying "When that becomes an issue, we'll address it" is inadequate as that just screams of going too far, removing law and order and turning this place into a total anarchy. Yes, this is the trolling narrative as well - I fully recognize it. I want peace in the world. Law and order and uplifting of the nation, a unification of both left and right into doing what's right for progress. Yes, we are stuck in chaos of echo chambers.
aspaceman 6y ago
You call in the national guard But no one is doing that? You have a bunch of peaceful protests that the police want to portray as looting and rioting so they can get out their jackboots and step on some throats.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  The National Guard is not a police force. It's a military organization. Calling them in for crowd control should be an absolute last resort. Yes, I realize the NG has MP units, but they don't have any super-powers or training that regular riot units in the police do not.
- tw04 6y ago
  The National Guard is a military force. They aren't trained for non-lethal combat and quite frankly shouldn't be, that's not their job. Even if they WERE, it takes DAYS to get a unit online and ready to operate, that's not an acceptable timeline for a scenario in which Police would need to use non-lethal force.
williamdclt 6y ago
First, that seems to be far far less frequent than police force abuse. So infrequent that I don't think I've heard of mass-killing crowds in Europe/US in the past 15 years, that sounds more like a theoretical possibility. Second, you're answering somedy that calls for accountability. How does that prevent violent crowd control?
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  I don't think this is a theoretical possibility. There is a huge income inequality, the society is splitting 4-ways - top/bottom(social status and income) and left/right (political). As we get more polarized, there is a possibility of people starving and oppressed which will end up going on the left or right or top or bottom and creating havoc. 2020 is an unprecedented year so far. I don't agree that this is a theoretical possibility.
  - Boxbot 6y ago
    maybe you should be proposing hypothetical solutions to address the issues of income inequality and oppression instead of how hypothetically you would like to see masses of people gunned down in the streets
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      I went to the protests myself and I support the cause. May be we should question all aspects of a problem, leave aside biases and understand the situation to make a better society? Getting rid of police control measures without proper authority is a good idea, but there should be reservations for when it's needed. I want to make sure those are not eroded or the society turns into something like Somalia. I also found your comment distasteful as it condemns my intent without substantiation. It is like calling someone with "obsession for murderous things". I take offense in that.
ouid 6y ago
The primary method is by building a society in which people, predominantly, have something to lose by doing so. The social contract is not some optional lofty ideal.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  Totally agree. > If there is righteousness in the heart, there will be beauty in the character. If there is beauty in the character, there will be harmony in the home. If there is harmony in the home, there will be order in the nations. When there is order in the nations, there will peace in the world. - Confucious
- on_and_off 6y ago
  we will/would have to stop fucking over black people in America at all the corners for the social contract to have any meaning for them. (and we definitely need to do that)
inetknght 6y ago
The problems that the crowds are complaining about are very deeply rooted and cannot be summed up in a single social media post. I won't take the time to sit and lecture you. I can understand being overwhelmed if you're only now tuning in. But there's a ton of opinions and views if you'd only pay attention. Take the time to learn about the problems instead of reflexively whining that the police are the easiest/only solution. I'll leave you with two links from my own echo chamber. The last few words of John Oliver's Last Week Tonight from a few weeks ago are extremely relevant [0]. And, here's a story from someone who claims to be a former cop [1]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY&feature=youtu.be&t=1905 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY&feature=youtu.be... [1] https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard...
pnutjam 6y ago
Like this...? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre I think it would qualify for lethal force.