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I've seen moral fashions. What's happening now is bigger, rarer and worse. It's known as a "purity spiral" (Haynes), "mass movement" (Hoffer), "political religi

I've seen moral fashions. What's happening now is bigger, rarer and worse. It's known as a "purity spiral" (Haynes), "mass movement" (Hoffer), "political religion" (Voegelin).

tomrod 6y ago
It's unclear which country and which side of the spectrum you're referring to. This is why I like to use science as a guide (not a decision point), for then there is a chance to be self-correcting.
- enraged_camel 6y ago
  Why is this comment being downvoted?
  - pharke 6y ago
    It seems rather tangential and doesn't contribute anything. It is pretty clear which country is being referred to if we're staying on topic, just saying "I like to use science as a guide" is an almost empty statement. Which science? Psychology, sociology, physics? The scientific method? How? Do you mean reading the current literature? How are you applying it as a guide to the current topic under discussion? The comment they were replying to cited authors and relevant terminology which is a great contribution for people that want to read more on the subject. This comment just blurts out an opinion and then follows it up with what could be considered a thinly disguised jab. Hence the downvotes.
  - tomrod 6y ago
    I think it is because I attempted to be neutral and post the mental model I like to use (other commenter asked if scientific method and recent research and understanding. Answer to both is yes.).
- nradov 6y ago
  Yes science can be a good guide. The trouble is that some left-wing social movements explicitly reject science (and Enlightenment values in general) as a tool of the oppressor. There are certain things you're not allowed to say regardless of scientific evidence. For one example, look what happened to scientific critics of Lysenkoism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#Effects
  - jasonvorhe 6y ago
    Like?
  - lghh 6y ago
    > left-wing social movements explicitly reject science (and Enlightenment values in general) as a tool of the oppressor I have not seen this, at least on a large scale. Are there specific events you are referencing?
    - Consultant32452 6y ago
      I don't think "not on a large scale" is a good argument. Small groups of people can be incredibly powerful. The people who founded our country could all fit in the same room together.
      - lghh 6y ago
        Yeah but the people who found the United States were in much more powerful positions than some college students, for example.
        Consultant32452 6y ago
        That argument is outdated by a decade or so. Sure, there's still some college students, but the ones from a decade ago now work in the big tech firms, NYT, etc.
    - thu2111 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
esperent 6y ago
Living outside the US and watching what's going on (ok, it's not just the US, but it is just a few countries) is like watching a friend's slow motion descent into madness. It's pitiful and sad, and I feel powerless to do anything about it. At the same time, so long as I stay away from news and social media, I'm pretty much unaffected. Society in the various countries I've spent time in over the last few years (Ireland, Spain, Germany, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia are the main ones) seems much the same as ever.
- nogabebop23 6y ago
  Well if you ignore the change that is reflected in what we call the news and social media of course society would seem the same, but that doesn't mean it's not changing. I agree that face-to-face interactions haven't deteriorated and may even be better than in the past, but the challenge is their share of communication and social interaction has dramatically shrunk.
  - esperent 6y ago
    I mean the overall health of society seems pretty much normal (corona excepted). Sure, people are talking more on social media than ten years ago. That doesn't seem to be a problem in an otherwise healthy society.
  - LanceH 6y ago
    The biggest thing that has changed is that a comment from 15 years ago can be dredged up, taken out of context and used to brand someone unacceptable for employment forever. Of course, this is enforced selectively.
    - esperent 6y ago
      Right, but I've never heard of that happening except from US media.
- philwelch 6y ago
  Most of the discourse motivating what's going on is in the English language, so perhaps that's a factor.
dilandau 6y ago
Is it a power-grab or an attempt by individuals to gain social status? I think that it has all those trappings, but underneath is a deep addiction to anger, outrage and the rush of adrenaline that accompanies it. There is also a sort of religiosity that your comment alludes to. >Various thinkers have pointed out that leftism is a kind of religion. Leftism is not a religion in the strict sense because leftist doctrine does not postulate the existence of any supernatural being. But, for the leftist, leftism plays a psychological role much like that which religion plays for some people. The leftist NEEDS to believe in leftism; it plays a vital role in his psychological economy. His beliefs are not easily modified by logic or facts. He has a deep conviction that leftism is morally Right with a capital R, and that he has not only a right but a duty to impose leftist morality on everyone.
- jahaja 6y ago
  The Unabomber, really? There's something disturbingly smug about thinking that one side is emotional to the point of religious and another side is logical and factual. Maybe it's time for some humbling introspection.
- RobertKerans 6y ago
  If you're quoting that you should maybe note that "Leftism" there means effectively anything that the author dislikes (or fits with their current PC bugbears) regardless of whether it's driven from the left side of the political spectrum of not.

I've seen moral fashions. What's happening now is bigger, rarer and worse. It's known as a "purity spiral" (Haynes), "mass movement" (Hoffer), "political religion" (Voegelin).

tomrod 6y ago

It's unclear which country and which side of the spectrum you're referring to. This is why I like to use science as a guide (not a decision point), for then there is a chance to be self-correcting.

enraged_camel 6y ago
Why is this comment being downvoted?
- pharke 6y ago
  It seems rather tangential and doesn't contribute anything. It is pretty clear which country is being referred to if we're staying on topic, just saying "I like to use science as a guide" is an almost empty statement. Which science? Psychology, sociology, physics? The scientific method? How? Do you mean reading the current literature? How are you applying it as a guide to the current topic under discussion? The comment they were replying to cited authors and relevant terminology which is a great contribution for people that want to read more on the subject. This comment just blurts out an opinion and then follows it up with what could be considered a thinly disguised jab. Hence the downvotes.
- tomrod 6y ago
  I think it is because I attempted to be neutral and post the mental model I like to use (other commenter asked if scientific method and recent research and understanding. Answer to both is yes.).
nradov 6y ago
Yes science can be a good guide. The trouble is that some left-wing social movements explicitly reject science (and Enlightenment values in general) as a tool of the oppressor. There are certain things you're not allowed to say regardless of scientific evidence. For one example, look what happened to scientific critics of Lysenkoism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#Effects
- jasonvorhe 6y ago
  Like?
- lghh 6y ago
  > left-wing social movements explicitly reject science (and Enlightenment values in general) as a tool of the oppressor I have not seen this, at least on a large scale. Are there specific events you are referencing?
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    I don't think "not on a large scale" is a good argument. Small groups of people can be incredibly powerful. The people who founded our country could all fit in the same room together.
    - lghh 6y ago
      Yeah but the people who found the United States were in much more powerful positions than some college students, for example.
      - Consultant32452 6y ago
        That argument is outdated by a decade or so. Sure, there's still some college students, but the ones from a decade ago now work in the big tech firms, NYT, etc.
  - thu2111 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

esperent 6y ago

Living outside the US and watching what's going on (ok, it's not just the US, but it is just a few countries) is like watching a friend's slow motion descent into madness. It's pitiful and sad, and I feel powerless to do anything about it. At the same time, so long as I stay away from news and social media, I'm pretty much unaffected. Society in the various countries I've spent time in over the last few years (Ireland, Spain, Germany, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia are the main ones) seems much the same as ever.

nogabebop23 6y ago
Well if you ignore the change that is reflected in what we call the news and social media of course society would seem the same, but that doesn't mean it's not changing. I agree that face-to-face interactions haven't deteriorated and may even be better than in the past, but the challenge is their share of communication and social interaction has dramatically shrunk.
- esperent 6y ago
  I mean the overall health of society seems pretty much normal (corona excepted). Sure, people are talking more on social media than ten years ago. That doesn't seem to be a problem in an otherwise healthy society.
- LanceH 6y ago
  The biggest thing that has changed is that a comment from 15 years ago can be dredged up, taken out of context and used to brand someone unacceptable for employment forever. Of course, this is enforced selectively.
  - esperent 6y ago
    Right, but I've never heard of that happening except from US media.
philwelch 6y ago
Most of the discourse motivating what's going on is in the English language, so perhaps that's a factor.

dilandau 6y ago

Is it a power-grab or an attempt by individuals to gain social status? I think that it has all those trappings, but underneath is a deep addiction to anger, outrage and the rush of adrenaline that accompanies it. There is also a sort of religiosity that your comment alludes to. >Various thinkers have pointed out that leftism is a kind of religion. Leftism is not a religion in the strict sense because leftist doctrine does not postulate the existence of any supernatural being. But, for the leftist, leftism plays a psychological role much like that which religion plays for some people. The leftist NEEDS to believe in leftism; it plays a vital role in his psychological economy. His beliefs are not easily modified by logic or facts. He has a deep conviction that leftism is morally Right with a capital R, and that he has not only a right but a duty to impose leftist morality on everyone.

jahaja 6y ago
The Unabomber, really? There's something disturbingly smug about thinking that one side is emotional to the point of religious and another side is logical and factual. Maybe it's time for some humbling introspection.
RobertKerans 6y ago
If you're quoting that you should maybe note that "Leftism" there means effectively anything that the author dislikes (or fits with their current PC bugbears) regardless of whether it's driven from the left side of the political spectrum of not.