4 ms·

I'm convinced that the best thing we as society can do for gender equality right now is to abandon the corporate roles that cater unreasonably much to the stere

I'm convinced that the best thing we as society can do for gender equality right now is to abandon the corporate roles that cater unreasonably much to the stereotypical macho male gender role. These are roles which in principle require you to abandon your private life and spend all your mental energy on the company. Why do we even have these roles? Well, according to behavioural psychology males fight for status, and the ultimate sacrifice gives the ultimate status. No wonder that no sane person wants a role like this. What is holding these roles in place then? Well, I think the business sector and legislation is largely to blame. Laws stipulate corporate structures, and business schools teach corporate structure perfectly in tune with the last industrial revolution. If there is anything we can do to make the work environment more egalitarian, it's to change corporate structures and create roles which aren't unreasonable and/or customized to old-fashion gender roles.

Siira 6y ago
Perhaps the current situation is completely okay? Some people sacrifice their leisure to work for something they care about. These tend to be men because of heightened competition. Who are you to dictate their life to satisfy your statistical egalitarianism? This is just bullying.
- galoisgirl 6y ago
  The sacrifice way more than just leisure. If this was about leisure, there would be no discussion.
  - mdorazio 6y ago
    The point stands. Who are you to dictate what is and is not ok for others to sacrifice in order to get what they want? Just because their values don't align with yours doesn't make them wrong.
    - galoisgirl 6y ago
      I'm not saying people shouldn't freely chose to sacrifice something, quite the opposite. I don't think some sacrifices should be required. It will always be a grey area: you can't have everything in life, there's only so many hours in a day. Another thing that may not be okay, is that when you tool at the top 5 regret of the dying, most men regret having worked so hard. So why are we pretending this is what they want?
      - antepodius 6y ago
        How, specifically, would you change that, then? Because people on the other tribal side of the argument to you are immediately skeptical of the motivations behind your stated goals, expecting anything you would actually propose doing to end up hurting them, even though they actually see similar problems to you (just expressed differently- see 'wagie, wagie, get in cagie' on youtube for how 4chan sees the rat-race, for example). So- someone makes you the emperor of the US. What do you do?
- afarrell 6y ago
  Slate Star Codex had an excellent essay about this, the nature of races-to-the-bottom, and the harm they cause to human flourishing.
raxxorrax 6y ago
Never have worked with a single engineer that worked for status. Not once. Especially softies know their place and have mostly other interests. They evidently exist, but they have to be a rare kind. Perhaps a specialty in certain industries. There is of course the usual bickering about who has the longest... best solution, but that is another thing and certainly not restricted to men. Much more prevalent is the stuff from the other side that reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N10-G8JaE5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N10-G8JaE5s Far more common behavior. It isn't even close. I don't think there are any rigid roles to be honest. Maybe just the ones you subject yourself to. There is the usual office psychology that is borderline pathological, but that is indeed a gender neutral phenomenon. > work environment more egalitarian what does that mean to you exactly?
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > Never have worked with a single engineer that worked for status Do you think they'd tell you they did, or show it in some way? I think they'd hide such goals, because wanting higher status tend to not make a good impression

Siira 6y ago

Perhaps the current situation is completely okay? Some people sacrifice their leisure to work for something they care about. These tend to be men because of heightened competition. Who are you to dictate their life to satisfy your statistical egalitarianism? This is just bullying.

galoisgirl 6y ago
The sacrifice way more than just leisure. If this was about leisure, there would be no discussion.
- mdorazio 6y ago
  The point stands. Who are you to dictate what is and is not ok for others to sacrifice in order to get what they want? Just because their values don't align with yours doesn't make them wrong.
  - galoisgirl 6y ago
    I'm not saying people shouldn't freely chose to sacrifice something, quite the opposite. I don't think some sacrifices should be required. It will always be a grey area: you can't have everything in life, there's only so many hours in a day. Another thing that may not be okay, is that when you tool at the top 5 regret of the dying, most men regret having worked so hard. So why are we pretending this is what they want?
    - antepodius 6y ago
      How, specifically, would you change that, then? Because people on the other tribal side of the argument to you are immediately skeptical of the motivations behind your stated goals, expecting anything you would actually propose doing to end up hurting them, even though they actually see similar problems to you (just expressed differently- see 'wagie, wagie, get in cagie' on youtube for how 4chan sees the rat-race, for example). So- someone makes you the emperor of the US. What do you do?
afarrell 6y ago
Slate Star Codex had an excellent essay about this, the nature of races-to-the-bottom, and the harm they cause to human flourishing.

raxxorrax 6y ago

Never have worked with a single engineer that worked for status. Not once. Especially softies know their place and have mostly other interests. They evidently exist, but they have to be a rare kind. Perhaps a specialty in certain industries. There is of course the usual bickering about who has the longest... best solution, but that is another thing and certainly not restricted to men. Much more prevalent is the stuff from the other side that reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N10-G8JaE5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N10-G8JaE5s Far more common behavior. It isn't even close. I don't think there are any rigid roles to be honest. Maybe just the ones you subject yourself to. There is the usual office psychology that is borderline pathological, but that is indeed a gender neutral phenomenon. > work environment more egalitarian what does that mean to you exactly?

cutemonster 6y ago
> Never have worked with a single engineer that worked for status Do you think they'd tell you they did, or show it in some way? I think they'd hide such goals, because wanting higher status tend to not make a good impression