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Why do you quote magical as if someone said that. Further, your point is that Apple chips are faster because of easily replicated reasons. Intel is charging hu

Why do you quote magical as if someone said that. Further, your point is that Apple chips are faster because of easily replicated reasons. Intel is charging hundreds of dollars for their chip -- you should charge them some consulting fees and tell them how easy this is to boost their performance! This isn't even considering that your whole analysis is flawed to begin with and you're comparing apples and oranges.

imtringued 6y ago
I think you misunderstood the comment. Intel CPUs are already performing well and it is Apple that is using the same strategy to reach Intel level performance (or even go slightly above it). What you missed is the fact that other SoC vendors like Qualcomm don't follow this strategy and therefore end up with cheaper but also lower performance SoCs. Since Intel doesn't manufacture ARM chips, you are now forced to go with Apple if you want good performance from an ARM chip.
- hn_check 6y ago
  The comment was very literal in comparing the cache on the Apple chip to the Intel chip. And just to be clear, cache is "expensive" in die size. They aren't putting an order in for L2 cache to Samsung or something. That Apple chip has a die size less than half the size of Intel chips than it outperforms. So the whole "expensive" claim is debunked before it even gets started. Further we are very explicitly comparing Apple silicon to Intel because that is exactly the transition that's happening here.
  - ece 6y ago
    The Apple chip doesn't have all big cores and only 6 total cores in the A12, Intel or AMD (CCX) have 8 big cores with SMT. Apple's multithread performance is accordingly slower. Once you account for these two big omissions, you'll likely find Apple take as much or more die area than AMD's Zen2 CCX for similar MT performance. It'll probably be more die area for equivalent performance, which for Apple might not be an issue given it's margins. Of all the ARM designs we've seen, cache is by far the unique factor in Apple's design, so comparing die size with equivalent cores+features makes complete sense. Like others have mentioned, maybe Apple will just focus on implementing new instructions, but at that point, they will likely diverge enough from the ARM ecosystem that developers and users should be somewhat worried.
    - hn_check 6y ago
      Amazing how quickly all of the goalposts are moving so people can desperately try to diminish whatever Apple does. Now it's die size? Or, odder still, die percentage. Firstly, the A12Z is 8 full cores. The "small" cores aren't limited to a subset of instructions or something, they're made on a more efficient, but lower headroom, tracing. That is a 120mm2 die, versus 197mm2 for the Ryzen 7 3700x (8 cores). Oh but wait, the 3700x has no integrated graphics, no video encoder/decoder, no 5TFlop neural network, no secure enclave... It's absolutely huge comparatively, and has a tiny fraction of the features. This whole die size nonsense really isn't turning out, is it? The 3700X is of course a faster chip (not in single threads, but when all cores are engaged), but that's with active cooling and a 65W+ TDP, versus about 6W for the A12Z. Oh, and it's even a year newer than the Apple chip which is just relevant for a development kit. Maybe we can prioritize based upon how many "Zen" codenames exist in the product. There the A12Z clearly falters!
      - ece 6y ago
        The 3700X CCX die has 8-core+36MB L2+L3 cache and is just 74mm2, the IO die has pcie4, ddr4, other IO and is 12nm 125mm2. For a total of 199mm2. If you want to compare cpu, graphics, video and nn, then the AMD 4800U die size is 156mm2, this chip has +4MB L2+L3 cache (12MB total), a much better GPU+FP16 for 4TFlop nn, and full AVX2+SMT cores more than the A12Z. The little A12 cores might be full ISA, but they're 1/3 the die area and are lower performance. NEON is half the size of AVX2 and the GPU difference alone would likely push the A12Z past 156mm2. And there are 15W/45W versions of this chip going as low as 10W. The A12Z is likely around 10W+ too in the iPad Pro and the devkit, but I can't find sources on this. Looking a lot more competitive now isn't it? The Qualcomm 855 is 73mm2, and the A12 is 83mm2, and the performance gains here are impressive. Beyond this, A12Z 120mm2 vs AMD APU 156mm2 and it's starting to look like a much closer fight, and by no means a perf/watt or perf/$ advantage for Apple until we see real systems. Die size is _the_ trade off Apple is making with their ARM/RISC+loads of L2 cache design. It's a trade off every chip makes, but it's especially important here with large cache sizes. I don't doubt in a couple of generations Apple can compete with an AMD 4800U CPU+GPU on real world multi-threaded tasks at 10W (assuming 15% increases/gen), but the 4800U is already a few months old now. Apple fanboys never learn. Sigh. Also, Apple fanboys are the new Intel fanboys when stressing single thread performance. Sources: http://www.hw-museum.cz/cpu/414/amd-ryzen-7-3700x http://www.hw-museum.cz/cpu/414/amd-ryzen-7-3700x https://www.techpowerup.com/264801/amd-renoir-die-shot-pictured https://www.techpowerup.com/264801/amd-renoir-die-shot-pictu... https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/igpu-amd_radeon_8_graphics_renoir-12 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/igpu-amd_radeon_8_graphics_ren... https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/qualcomm/snapdragon_800/855 https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/qualcomm/snapdragon_800/855 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A12

imtringued 6y ago

I think you misunderstood the comment. Intel CPUs are already performing well and it is Apple that is using the same strategy to reach Intel level performance (or even go slightly above it). What you missed is the fact that other SoC vendors like Qualcomm don't follow this strategy and therefore end up with cheaper but also lower performance SoCs. Since Intel doesn't manufacture ARM chips, you are now forced to go with Apple if you want good performance from an ARM chip.

hn_check 6y ago
The comment was very literal in comparing the cache on the Apple chip to the Intel chip. And just to be clear, cache is "expensive" in die size. They aren't putting an order in for L2 cache to Samsung or something. That Apple chip has a die size less than half the size of Intel chips than it outperforms. So the whole "expensive" claim is debunked before it even gets started. Further we are very explicitly comparing Apple silicon to Intel because that is exactly the transition that's happening here.
- ece 6y ago
  The Apple chip doesn't have all big cores and only 6 total cores in the A12, Intel or AMD (CCX) have 8 big cores with SMT. Apple's multithread performance is accordingly slower. Once you account for these two big omissions, you'll likely find Apple take as much or more die area than AMD's Zen2 CCX for similar MT performance. It'll probably be more die area for equivalent performance, which for Apple might not be an issue given it's margins. Of all the ARM designs we've seen, cache is by far the unique factor in Apple's design, so comparing die size with equivalent cores+features makes complete sense. Like others have mentioned, maybe Apple will just focus on implementing new instructions, but at that point, they will likely diverge enough from the ARM ecosystem that developers and users should be somewhat worried.
  - hn_check 6y ago
    Amazing how quickly all of the goalposts are moving so people can desperately try to diminish whatever Apple does. Now it's die size? Or, odder still, die percentage. Firstly, the A12Z is 8 full cores. The "small" cores aren't limited to a subset of instructions or something, they're made on a more efficient, but lower headroom, tracing. That is a 120mm2 die, versus 197mm2 for the Ryzen 7 3700x (8 cores). Oh but wait, the 3700x has no integrated graphics, no video encoder/decoder, no 5TFlop neural network, no secure enclave... It's absolutely huge comparatively, and has a tiny fraction of the features. This whole die size nonsense really isn't turning out, is it? The 3700X is of course a faster chip (not in single threads, but when all cores are engaged), but that's with active cooling and a 65W+ TDP, versus about 6W for the A12Z. Oh, and it's even a year newer than the Apple chip which is just relevant for a development kit. Maybe we can prioritize based upon how many "Zen" codenames exist in the product. There the A12Z clearly falters!
    - ece 6y ago
      The 3700X CCX die has 8-core+36MB L2+L3 cache and is just 74mm2, the IO die has pcie4, ddr4, other IO and is 12nm 125mm2. For a total of 199mm2. If you want to compare cpu, graphics, video and nn, then the AMD 4800U die size is 156mm2, this chip has +4MB L2+L3 cache (12MB total), a much better GPU+FP16 for 4TFlop nn, and full AVX2+SMT cores more than the A12Z. The little A12 cores might be full ISA, but they're 1/3 the die area and are lower performance. NEON is half the size of AVX2 and the GPU difference alone would likely push the A12Z past 156mm2. And there are 15W/45W versions of this chip going as low as 10W. The A12Z is likely around 10W+ too in the iPad Pro and the devkit, but I can't find sources on this. Looking a lot more competitive now isn't it? The Qualcomm 855 is 73mm2, and the A12 is 83mm2, and the performance gains here are impressive. Beyond this, A12Z 120mm2 vs AMD APU 156mm2 and it's starting to look like a much closer fight, and by no means a perf/watt or perf/$ advantage for Apple until we see real systems. Die size is _the_ trade off Apple is making with their ARM/RISC+loads of L2 cache design. It's a trade off every chip makes, but it's especially important here with large cache sizes. I don't doubt in a couple of generations Apple can compete with an AMD 4800U CPU+GPU on real world multi-threaded tasks at 10W (assuming 15% increases/gen), but the 4800U is already a few months old now. Apple fanboys never learn. Sigh. Also, Apple fanboys are the new Intel fanboys when stressing single thread performance. Sources: http://www.hw-museum.cz/cpu/414/amd-ryzen-7-3700x http://www.hw-museum.cz/cpu/414/amd-ryzen-7-3700x https://www.techpowerup.com/264801/amd-renoir-die-shot-pictured https://www.techpowerup.com/264801/amd-renoir-die-shot-pictu... https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/igpu-amd_radeon_8_graphics_renoir-12 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/igpu-amd_radeon_8_graphics_ren... https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/qualcomm/snapdragon_800/855 https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/qualcomm/snapdragon_800/855 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A12